In Order To Secure A Conviction For Murder Is It Not Necessary For The Crown To Show Intent?

[sandyRoe]

A man in his 70s collapses and dies from a heart attack while his house is burgled. A married couple, initially charged with manslaughter, are now to be charged with murder and robbery. Is the DPP aiming too high here?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26174441

[woofgang]

as i understand it, intent as in "i wanted him dead" is not always necessary because you can't deny intent if you deliberately do something that might reasonably be expected to lead to the death of your victim, kind of implied intent. if you do something like repeatedly jump up and down on someone's head wearing steel toe cap boots and it leads to death, you can't use "i didnt mean to kill him" as a defence against a murder charge. not sure how that works with a heart attack though

[dannyk13]

The difference beteen murder and manslaughter is premeditation but there is much case law on the subject regarding whether a person should have seen the outcome of his actions.,e.g severing and stealing gas pipes whilst someone was asleep in the house.

[SeaJayPea]

Released on bail?? On a murder charge. Blimey, that's a new one on me.

[Old_Jim]

Killing someone in the course of committing a crime counts as murder in England. The prosecution only needs to show intent to commit the crime, not intent to kill. All the prosecution needs to prove in this case is that the accused was on the premises without permission and that the death was directly related to his presence.

[sandyRoe]

Just last week in NI two drugged and drunk joyriders in a stolen car killed a young policewoman. Her death occurred in the course of a crime. But they were only convicted of manslaughter.

[Zacs-Master]

Old Jim, I think 'felony murder' has been abolished:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

[sandyRoe]

^ Those two were in court last week. The crime happened some time ago.

[Zacs-Master]

What, before 1957?

[Buenchico]

According to the guidelines (based upon legal precedents) issued by the CPS to its own staff, to sustain a charge of murder there must be intent to kill or to commit grievous bodily harm:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_murder_and_manslaughter/#murder

[ToraToraTora]

not like you to side with the criminal sandy.

[sandyRoe]

I'm not siding with criminals. In the case where the older man collapsed and died there's no suggestion, as far as I know, that he was assaulted. Even to a layman it looks like it would be very difficult to secure a murder conviction.
The joyriders, in the other case I mentioned, who were engaging in criminal activity when they killed the young policewoman were reckless but probably didn't have any intention to kill.

[joko]

so if i was shoplifting and turned to run out the door and in my haste ran into and old lady, knocking her down, she then bangs her head and dies a few days later - am i guilty of murder?

if the same thing happened, but my reason for running was not theft but that i was late for the bus, would it be manslaughter?

[joko]

why is it so hard to discuss details of a situation, without emotion, just focusing on facts, and playing devils advocate etc, without being accused of supporting criminals etc?

[ToraToraTora]

we are not talking about twee liberal theories we are talking about death being the outcome during a home violation, a ghastly under rated crime.

[FredPuli43]

Bit difficult to have a felony murder when felony was abolished decades ago ! Anyway, what we call burglary now wasn't always a felony. Burglary was the crime committed in hours of darkness, and was a felony, but the same crime in daylight was called housebreaking, and wasn't. Anyway, the principle of felony murder was abolished in Northern Ireland and on the mainland, long ago, as said

The necessary intent is to cause grievous bodily harm, a specific intent, nothing less, for murder. Depends what the evidence is; there may be enough to show that intent but it doesn't seem likely.