It is not her house

[Shelley22]

My grandad helped his niece out 15 years ago because her parents split up. He bought a house and put it in her name on the deeds. He told her it was for a year until she felt secure then they would change the house back into his name. LIek a trust but the deeds say her name only. It was just to help her stand on her two feet and so she would not run away from her parents again. Grnadad is from a trustworthy era and left it all to the solicitor as he did not know much about it then.

She subsequently ran away and nothing was heard of her. As the house was grandads and he knew it was his he started to rent it out. He had paid for it with his money and worke don it etc.

He did the house up and has rented it out legally ever since on and off.

She found out through a family friend that her names on the deeds. The green eyed monster came out and after fifteen years she is back. She has never had any post to this house in her name ever, she has never paid a penny as she was 17 and did not have a job and her parents through her out so she could not have afforded the house. Everything was done on a trustworthy basis by grandad tryignto help his family out.

Her husband and her have been claiming social security benefits all these years and now are fraudulently tryign to claim it is their house and the woman had died leaving it in her name.

How can the legal system be so unfair and outdated?

Basically she is saying it is hers when it is not. When in fact it is not as she has not put a penny to it ever.

Subsequently when she eloped she did so with a suppresive man and they have been claiming benefits ever since as the house was never intended to be hers and grandad thought he was doing everything by the book.

She wants house which worth about 70 k . Grnadad can prove he bought it and has looked after it and was a landlorld. When she had nothing except the clothes on her back.

Help?

[Maud]

There is a simple step that can easily and inexpensively be taken to put your Grandfather back into control. Firstly though, before I explain,  can you tell me, please, is the property registered at the Land Registry?

[Shelley22]

Yes it is registered at the land registry but the niece refuses to sign anything back and the deeds are in her name and not in a trust like grandad first thought, so grandad is being told to take it to court with her in a premiumposition

  ;

Thanks Maud

[Maud]

OK. It is the Entry on the Land Register which counts, nothing else. Before I detail the effective step which can be taken to reinstate Grandfather (without going to Court) it is very important that we must be absolutely certain of whose name is on the Entry. Will you therefore please go to this link http://www.landregisteron line.gov.uk/servlet/TitleSearchServl

and spend �2 by credit card to check the Entry and then post here whether in actual fact it is the niece or Grandfather. Whilst there you will see information on the District Land Registry Office dealing with your area, please make a note of this as it will be needed later.

[Maud]

Oh dear, the AB links are not working properly at the moment. Therefore please go to www.landregistryonline.gov.uk/ and then to Property Search in the top bar and then onward as instructed to conduct the Entry search ( don't worry if you do not know the Title No, just enter the address and postcode and it will work fine).

[Maud]

Sorry, its late and its getting to me! The address is www.landregisteronline.gov.uk.

[Shelley22]

Hi Maud.

 

Thanks for your help.

I have just been to see my grandad and therefore unable to reply. She has her name on the title deeds I am afraid and that is why we are at a loss as we have tried to get the information.

Does this mean we are at the end of the road?

[Shelley22]

Sorry about that.

 

The niece's name is on both the deeds and title. The unfortunate thing is it was genuinely a case of helping her out but she left before he could get it changed all them years ago. The property was not given outright to her. However the solicitors have got rid of the file from before as grandad instructed them and he has the correspondence for it also and paying them money. The solicitors now seem to think as she is on the title that is the only thing that matters.

 

Another interesting matter that has come to light is thaT SHE was only 16,17 at the time and if this was the case, surely the solicitors have been negligent as they cannot take instructions from her anyway as she never once went to the solicitors, just signed the paperwork when grandad told her..

it has been a very expensive lesson in this ever changing world... but i worry about his health more than anything as i guess he was counting on it for his retirement.

 

[Hgrove]

Without wishing to step into Maud's shoes or take over in any way, I would just like to say that prompt action  may be important in this case.  I suspect that, if the niece runs up debts secured against the house, these creditors may have priority over and above your grandfather.

[Shelley22]

Hi H grove.

 

Any advice is welcome and we instructed a solicitor who said there was an equitable interest but she left another one has taken over who seems less confident and well maybe time to look elsewhere.

I maybe naively still believe if ti went to court that grandad stands a better chance as she and her husband ahe known to have taken benefits for fifteen years, her hubby has come out of jail for ill gotten gains and both are not of good charascter, if she knew it was hers why wair rhis long and why did she not claim it befure, Surely a judge an see that grandad who has beenworking all his life with a clean record made a mistake in trusting her..

 

[Sproutstick]

Ok Shelley I think I can help in a different way.  If the land reg is in the neice's name, then it is classed as her property.  In this case, she has effectively owned this property for 15 years and yet has never declared it as a 2nd property to the DWP or her local council (I am presuming that she is the kind of person who has been in receipt of a means-tested benefit such as JSA(IB)/Income Support for many years and has been claiming rent and council tax benefit based on these income details - full rent and CTAX will have been paid).

As soon as you supply the DWP with proof that her name appears on the deeds and on the land reg, they will have to take the 2nd prop into account.  Make sure you state that she has known all along that this prop existed but chose out of her own free will to not live there.Has your grandad ever sent her money?  If so, get proof of this and state that she has been in receipt of a rental income as well.When all this has been taken into account including the full value of the property she will have a MASSIVE overpayment with the DWP.  They will cancel her claim right back to the date when she first claimed benefit and she will then have to pay back all monies received.  The DWP will then notify her local council of the fact that she has failed to notify them of this info and the council will then take the value of the 2nd property and any rental income into account.  This will create another massive overpayment which she will have to pay back.  She will also probably get prosecuted by both local and central government bodies for failing to declare a change which clearly affects entitlement.  I think once she realises this she will sign the deeds back over to your grandad. 

[Sproutstick]

Couldn't fit this bit:

What she then won't realise is that they will still take the house value into account as this will be classed as "deprevation of capital" and a "notional" amount will now be taken into account.  Do not tell her the last bit - just wait til she has passed the house back to your grandad and then report her for depriving herself of capital willingly.

I hope this has helped??

[Shelley22]

Hi Sproutstick.

 

Thanks for your advice. Everyone has been great and unfortunately more help than the law itself.

When it was in her name she was young it was done as a favour and she never was box clever but her hubby knows exactly how to play the system andhas thugs as protection also.

She never received rents as it was never hers and that is my question she never evert thouhgt it was hers ( which it was not until a family member said, ey do you know all them years ago and them ( grandad ) lot put the deeds in your name to help you out, do you know what that means, it means that its worth 70 k and it is not theirs, you can claim it. Her husband and her have claimed benefits fraudelently, declared living seperately when they have not etc,

She is saying it was always hers and some woman left it to her so sayi8ng she knew it was hers.

 

I mean really would someone pay the bills everything rent it out for 15 years with the local council, hold down a job with the same company for thirty years like grandad has if he was doing something dodgy.

The declaring her name on the deeds is a good idea to the DSW but what about the fact that she is saying she knew it was hers, when actually she has not paid anything ever and had atrustworthy agreement with grandad.

 

 

If it goes to court, Maud, Hgrove, Sproutstick, what do you all think. Surely an impartial judge will see that her and her husband are up to no good and will look at an honest working mans workign history, the limited proof, Solicitors letter, bank statements showing money coming out at that time.

[Shelley22]

sorry, ran out of space,

 

If nothing is taken from this and lots of the other dispute questions, is that verbal agreements are a thing of the past, get everything signed , sealed and verified...

 

Anyway back to her, Even the police were ivolved when she eloped so she has a history of getting up to no good.



Since this hassle  grandad refused to let her get into trouble with dsw as he believes in god and old school but i think he needs to be realistic in what she really is like, not the young girl he tried to help all those years ago.

If there was any truth to her story, grandad is so old school that for the fear of god he would hand it over.

With a illnesses in the family anyway this is another nail in the coffin it feels..

[Sproutstick]

Hello Shelley.  Please don't lose heart.  I do feel that what you say is true, I feel that it will stand up in court.  However, you must be aware that things like this can go either way.  Unfortunately it seems to me that in these cases there really is no black and white in the eyes of the law.  Cases of this nature could also possibly take years and years before there is a settlement.  This could create greater stress for your grandad in the long run and in the meantime the evil neice could be running up all sorts of debts against the property.

My area of expertise lies within the benefits system (having been employed by both central and local government bodies for a number of years). There is DEFINITLY a case for fraud here and even though you're saying that she didn't know about the property - she is saying that she did and she also signed a document 15 years ago.  If she says to the DWP that she doesn't remember signing the doc then she would have to prove that she has a mental illness so that they wouldn't prosecute.  Either way, she will have to pay back the money that she has not been entitled to for 15 years.

I think your best line of attack would definitely be to approach the DWP with your evidences.  You CAN do this anonymously through a fraud hotline, but in your case she will obviously know where the info has come from.  If she has thugs on her side than that is also something you need to bear in mind but don't let it put you off because that is simply bullying.

If she is living with someone but claiming as a single person, you can contact your local council who can perform an ad hoc visit called an 'intervention' visit.  If they see signs that she is living with someone they can again take action.

 

< P>I'm sorry if all this is useless.....????

[Shelley22]

No That is all fantastic and we appreciate your time and effort all three of you. All three are giving different realistic options which are really helpful as with this niece and her scary partner it seems we need as much informed knowledge as possible...

Every piece of advice is warmly welcomed and not felt useless at all when you have all taken your time and efforts to respond, Thank you very much and i will make every attmpt to keep you informed..:-)

 < /P>

[Sproutstick]

Good luck Shelley - let us know how you get on :-D

I know it's futile consolation, but at least your grandad can be happy in the knowledge that he has a wonderful, caring grandaughter which kind of compensates for his neice's selfish behaviour.  I also firmly believe that 'what goes around comes around' and I suspect this niece is a very unhappy person surrounded by people who care only for themselves.  She will be the loser in this no matter what happens!

[Shelley22]

Hi Sproutstick.

Many thanks and the truth is grandad would have helped in her in any way had she cone back in a genuine way but he feels he has no choice now.

We are a strong family and there is more to life than money but i guess he should put up a fight when he wants to retire and enjoy it.

My grandpa in law is a really wholesome character but i do not want to advise him of litigation unless i know his health can take it.

Thank you all.

p.s Maud, which line of attack were you going to advise and all are welcome to build the best case against her :--)

Thabks again Sproutstick for your time, effort and knowledge. Have a good weekend.

 

[Hgrove]

Shelley22, I am not familiar with the area of benefits which Sproutstick has advised you on, but my line was basically the "equitable interest" which you wrote a solicitor had already mentioned to you.  My thinking was that your grandfather has an equitable interest in the land (the land the house stands on) which is not defeated by registration in the niece's name.  It could, however, be defeated by a legal interest, i.e. if the niece raises a mortgage or other loan using the land as security, the lender's interest will be "legal", registered as an entry (known as a charge) at the Land Registry.  So you must act fast - before she has the time to run up debts if she had not already done so. I am not sure exactly what your grandfather is entitled to - at least the money he paid; maybe the increase in value.  As far as I can tell Maud always gives good advice.  If you don't hear from her, I strongly advise you to dump the solicitor who does not understand equity and ring around until you find another solicitor who is not afraid to talk "equity" (a wonderful English invention).  Do not be intimidated.  Solicitors, like some doctors and builders, say there is nothing you can do when they don't know.  One last thought: as far as I know, a judge would only consider two things: what the parties' respective intentions were at the time of the transfer of title, and, whether the parties involved came to court with clean hands in respect of this particular transaction... hope that makes sense.

[Shelley22]

H grove.

Thank you for your time. I am going to speak to grandad tomorrow and i will ring around on Monday.

I am waiting to hear from Maud then i will take all three of yours advice and kind words and take it to move forward.

What Sproutstick said was valid and fair and we are taking that on board. I agree with what you say about acting fast and i still have faith in the system even if grandad and his children are losing faith. I think this new solicitor stumoed him as the other one left the firm which meant the new one may not be as confident. Thank you for your time and I will take all three of your advices ( once i hear from Maud ) and then put it into action on Monday. I am just waiting to hear from Maud now.

In the meantime, THANK YOU ( Maud, Sproutstick and yourself ) and I will keep you all informed.

p.s Maud. What were you going to advise yesterday. it would be nice to hear fromyou so i can take all the advice and move with it first thing on Monday.

Shelley