docking of tail for working purposes

[itmepop134]

i am looking to start my own security business
with the help of my due rottweiler puppies however i am informed that the docking of tails is now illegal unless a working dog .
i no from previous security company that the docking of tails were essential due to there vulnerable grabbing position of many unwanted visitors on privet property and the dogs getting the tails caught in fences etc.
i am fully trained in the security industry with a front line SIA badge
am i able to have them docked as they will be working dogs and if so how do i go about it and if not why? and who do i appeal to
many thanks rich

[woofgang]

umm GSD's have tails, as do weimaraners and that doesn't seem to affect their abilities as guard dogs...

[lankeela]

Yiou cannot have them docked under any circumstances. It is only certain gundogs and terrier tbreeds and crosses of those breeds that are to be worked in the field that are exempt. Their definition of 'working' is not the same as the KC 'Working' group.

[lankeela]

This is from the Kennel Club's Q & A page on docking:

"I have working dogs and plan to continue to have them docked. What evidence do I need to have, to prove that they were docked legally?
Only veterinary surgeons are allowed to dock puppies. They are then required to certify that the pups have been legally docked. The evidence/information/ procedures that veterinary surgeons require to certify that pups have been legally docked has been set out under the government regulations and will be available from Defra.

What breeds of dog are exempted from the docking ban in England and Wales, and may continue to be docked legally?
The breeds in which docking may continue in England and Wales include Spaniels, Terriers and Hunt Point Retrieve breeds, providing they will be used to work."

[amonty1144]

I hope you're not in a hurry to start, as it will take you a couple of years to train the pups.
A tail should not make a difference to working ability but you will need some assitance to safely train for manwork

[itmepop134]

thanks for all your quick feedback
please don't get me wrong but unless you have seen a dog have its tail dislodge from its spine a lot of people wouldn't understand the pain that dog has to go through. after all its the trespassers that cause the pain for the dog.
not the owners!
any owner with a dog for security including the police and military have the option to have the tail of a dog docked due to the tail being a vulnerable part of it body i will now attach a part of an email i received today from the board of animal welfare ::::::::::::::
The docking of the breeds characteristics are procedures performed to insure the safety of dogs that on a daily basis perform heroic roles with Security company's, serve in the Military and with the police team's protecting tens of thousands of communities throughout our country.
from what you have told me your are well in rights to have the tail of the pup's chosen docked and is a very simple procedure that can be done with many veterinarians. in regards to
the pups due to there nature it is best to train them from a very early stage and with good training should pass all government guidelines and take no longer than 5-7 months. i will have sent out to you several forms of advice and help regarding all inquiries you have put across to me and bid you best wishes with your business in the near future ::::::::

i have been in touch with my local vet and the tail's of 4 pups all being well will be docked 6 hours after birth thanks for your feedback

[lankeela]

If you live in the UK you will be breaking the law and the vet can be struck off.

[lankeela]

If that is a genuine email from a government board then I will eat my hat. Please give a link to the Board of Animal Welfare.

[crazycathy2]

We have a springer and when he was docked the owner had to prove that he was going to be used as a gun dog which he is.

Our local vet even knows the breeder.

[clydeserani]

IMHO..docking tails is cruel and needless and a barbaric practice....

[crazycathy2]

I think most breeders here dock their gun dogs as there are loads of springers here and I've not seen an undocked one.

I think it is incase they damage the tails when they are working. Ours is a failed gun dog - he hates loud noises - but they dock them about 24hrs old I think.

His mum belonged to a gamekeeper and the whole litter were done.

[Ice.Maiden]

Hello itmepop. Sorry, I don't hold with the idea of docking, for whatever human- thought- of reason. We have quite a lot to do with working dogs, and although they've all had this done as pups, the trend is now looking towards leaving as nature intended. The simple procedure you describe is also a painful one, and the docking in itsdelf can cause problems. Even vets don't use analgesia, and pups've been known to die from shock and/or blood loss. Infection can also set in. Having said this, I'm led to believe that docking's illegal for cosmetic purposes, but can still be done on working dogs.

[crazycathy2]

Ice M I think I read somewhere about the docking that many vets say that as the puppies can't fend for themselves and are blind and they stay with their mother after birth they don't develop a true feeling of pain for a week which is why docking has to be done before 4 days. Animals that leave their mothers straight away and can see can't be docked for the same reason (thougth what other animals they meant I can't remember though pigs come to mind)

Other vets disagree and won't dock. We had Sirus because he was unwanted but I wouldn't of gone looking for a docked dog as I do think it's cruel.

[itmepop134]

again thanks for feedback and i have to apologies for not stating i lived in Ireland
many parts of ireland will not dock the tails of dogs even though there has not been a full ban
i know it is illegal in the UK as there was an article in the newspaper the other week about British breeders coming here to have there puppies tails docked
i wouldn't want you to eat your hat but ill leave the link for you to have a nose about yourself maybe you could leave a donation instead thanks http://www.ispca.ie/

[terambulan]

I cant see why a tail is a hazard to some dogs & not others. Like dew claws - some dogs have them. None of these appendages need removing till they actually become a problem.

Tail docking does set back some puppies survival thru incompetant operators. Docking is barbaric & un-necessary.

[Ice.Maiden]

I know what you're saying Cathy. In fact, I was under the impression that pups have to be docked within 2 days, but I'm against it full-stop, despite having dogs in the past which've been done.
I'll make a donation to that, itmepop. x

[itmepop134]

crazycathy2 dont get me wrong if i wasn't going to use the dags for working purposes they would have them left on the vet thinks we could have up to six and i will only be having 4 docked i have also heard that for the first 4-8 days the pups arnt all there if you like its not until they start fending for themselves that they truly start learning how to be dag

[*Princess*]

Docking tails it wrong. How can anyone even consider it, seriously? How about I cut your ears off whilst I'm at it?

[itmepop134]

ice.maiden a donation would be great they do so much here and get very little even though they are a government based society there are too many dags being dumped everyday
we have a big problem here with fighting dogs the beat don't want to know and your fighting a losing battle

[paraffin]

Totally unnecessary and unjustifiable no matter the circumstances.

A barbaric practice carried out by those with nil respect for their dogs.

[itmepop134]

princess::: they do that to here now that i am against Ive been to many dag shows and the ears on some of the dags it silly and cruel we don't have many here but my brother in UK has a 6 year old doberman i think its called and the ears are in the air constantly poor dag