PAYE question

[cassa333]

Hello all,

I'm not sure where this should go so will move it if needs be.

My friends grandson had a serious accident and has TBI. As a result he is, to all outward appearances, normal but has 24hr care because of the brain injury, ie 'zones out', epilepcy and recall problems.

His carers (via a care team) take him on holiday, different courses etc take him out and about and make his life as normal as possible etc.

During his holiday away his care team are paid 24/7, includeing all food and drink and are even given �20 a day spends for themselves. If he does a course they are also on the course. One for instance is a silversmith course where they get to keep what they make.

Via him they get to do very expencive things they probably wouldn't be able to afford themselves so have started 'suggesting' more elaborate things for him to do. But that is another issue lol.

Anyway after all this background the question.

Should the carers be paying tax on any of this? especialy the 'spends' when they are away? Are they classed as wrok expences or payments in kind and therefore taxable in the same way that gifts etc are?

Thank you.

[bednobs]

who pays them? If they are paid via an agency, then the agency will deal with their paye usually. If through social services then the cuncil, their employer will deal with it

[cassa333]

It is a care company. My question isn't who pays them but should they get taxed on the extras they recieve? IE spending money or the non esential courses they go on. They are paid to look after him not sit and make things!

[ummmm]

So you would preferr they sat and watched him instead of join in?

[cassa333]

Personaly yes I would. They are paid to care for him not be on v expensive courses.

However that isn't the point. The question was should they be taxed on the purks they receive?

[samuel23]

Does he enjoy these things he is doing?

Would he be upset if he had to stop doing them?

Sounds like a case of sour grapes here - why should you care what the carers do or don't get - or are you just jealous that they are getting to do 'expensive' things?
If they are away 'on holiday' The carers are in fact NOT are they? They have the duty of care for 24hrs a day, so why shouldn't they be paid for it? If you were to be 'on call' and expected to provide care say at 3 in the morning after a busy day would you do it for nothing?
Stop envying them any small benefits they might get and start praising them for actually doing things with this lad to improve his standard of life.!!!

Good point ummmm - at least they are doing something with him.
So cassa333 - if you are so upset with these people being paid, why not offer to do these things with him yourself, for nothing? Ah, no - I didn't think you would.

[sara3]

surely the care people are there to care for him, not enrol on the same courses themselves.

they could help and care without such expense. I think it's madness and totally unnecessary. food and drink would be an expense, but taking part in the course is just not!

[Buenchico]

HMRC could probably spend weeks trying to work out what, if anything, is taxable from the list in your question.

For example drinks and snacks while at work are non-taxable but meals are usually only non-taxable if they're provided in a canteen for all staff. If you want to try to make sense of the rules, start here:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/taxable-incom e.htm

Chris

[samuel23]

So how do you know that they actually pay for these courses, their place may be free because they are the care rs?
It may be that they expected to be there and join in as part of their job.
Don't be so quick to judge

[barry1010]

sara3. Most courses have limited space and can only accept a certain amount of people in the room or at the facilities. If some of those aren't paying then they can't go, it is as simple as that. The course instructors or staff would not want the responsibility of looking after this man, and would not be trained to do so, so he wouldn't be able to attend either.
A blind, TBI lady goes to my gym with her carers. They accompany her in the swimming pool, the sauna and so on. Without the carers she could not go. The carers have to be members too.

[samuel23]

At last - a voice of reason.
Well put barry1010.
I suspect that there is a large amount of envy sloshing around here. Sad that these people can't see that the carers are trying to bring some pleasure to this lad.
I would ask them just one question - if you dislke the idea of the carers getting involved so much, would you prefer a return to the old days when disabled people were stuck away out of sight and left to fester?

[brenda]

Why are you raising this issue, is the young man's family satisfied with the care he is getting ,or not?
if thry are then don't interfere , if they are not let them take the issue up, as I see it this whole thing has nothing to do with you.

[sara3]

if an extra place has to be paid for, fair enough, but paying the extras for necessities of the course itself, or even taking part as an individual, is not a necessity for a carer.

I can see that this might be abused (I said might, before someone offers me out for a fight!), but to be honest if your friend isn't footing the bill I don't feel she need to worry her/himself about what payments are made.

[Mamyalynne]

It seems to me this young man is getting exemplary care and if he was my friend or relative I can honestly say this would never have crossed my mind.

[cassa333]

The courses are not free for the carers. They are paid for at the going rate. He has about five careres (on a shift basis).

I don't have a bee in my bonnet about them being on the courses, to a degree it may help him feel 'normal' Only that they are there to care for him not milk the fact they get a lot for free.

How would you like to go to Thruxton for the grand pre(!)? I can't afford it but even though he has never in his life been interested in it a carer has decided that they will take him for three days. Of course they all get to go on 24/7 pay, get the best seats in the house, full board AND personal spending money all being paid for by him. Do you think he actually wanted to go or did the carer?

Anyway the point is what is taxable? I am thinking the personal spending money and the food and drink they are given when off duty when away with him?

Thank you Chris I shall try to fathom it out from there. Would it be ok do you think ifsomeone where to phone the tax office to ask them?

[Mamyalynne]

so above and beyond the tax question you are implying you think they are choosing activities in their interests rather than his, in that case his family should consult the care agency to resolve this

[samuel23]

Yep - definitely a case of 'I'm not able to do it so why should others?'
So this young man has never in his life been interested in something? Well believe me I am one of 5 children and it never fails to amaze me what my siblings suddenly decide they are interested in. Sometimes this is because someone has involved them, sometimes it's a whim, but just because they haven't done it before doesn't mean to say they won't like it if they try it.
So are you now advocating that this lad never gets to experience anything new or different?
May I suggest that you get a life of your own and stop poking your nose into someone elses?

[cassa333]

Thank you for the actual answers to my questions they are very helpful.

As to the issue of envy etc, you are of course allowed your oppinion but it isn't even close.

For those of you who think that way how do you answer the following?

At what point do the activities organised for him change from life enhancing to being taken advatage of by the care workers? Or do you think they should just be gung ho about spending his money until it has all gone?

[bednobs]

the care agency will be sorting their tax and what is and is not cliamable - for all you know they could be paying tax on these so-called "perks" already. It is their private business what their tax codes are, and what they pay in tax in my opinion. Even if going through chrises link you find that absoultely everything is taxable, what use is this information? As i hope you are not privvy to their payslips, you won't know if they are already paying it or not. If the agency is a reputable business they will be handling tax according to the "rules" anyway, so (in my opinion) n need for anyone else to concern themselves. Your relative would pay them the same no matter what tax they then paid on the money, so really it's nothing to do with him either. Are you saying he is so brain damaged he dosen't have the ability to say yes or no to things he does or does not want?

[samuel23]

So what you are saying is that his carers are indiscriminately spending his money?
Is this compensation he has received?
Or funding from his parents?
Or is it (as I suspect) the payment from the local authorities for his care package?
I would be very cautious about writing any of this down if you have no proof of any wrong doing - it's still an offence to liable someone.
If this is his own money and he is unable to control it himself, then a court appointed guardian will have the final say. Unless you are suggesting that they are deliberately spending his money recklessly?
If not then (once again) what business of yours is it how the money is spent?