employer taking tips - legal?

[CEC]

My daughter works in a pub. For some weeks now there has been a thief, who has been taking tips and monies from the till. Management have failed to find out who this is despite promises made. All the bar staff and resteraunt staff tips earned over the Christmas period were confiscated by the management to make up the deficit. The staff have now been told that all the tips will be pooled and shared out on the basis of number of hours worked. They have also been told that if the tills are down that money will be taken out of the tips.
I am sure that this is illegal, but would like to know for certain before she approaches the manager. I am sure that someone out there can help me out.
Will be obliged. Thanks.

[AlBags]

Better than taking it out of wages tho!
Get together and find out who it is. If the police are involved .. they will be around everyones houses and probably still not catch those responsible.

[CEC]

I think Management are being a bit idle. They said that they would all have individual tills but that has not happened. Whoever it is must be good at it because they are all watching one another, not a good atmosphere.

[AlBags]

Not a ruse by Management to make more money then?!

[ummmm]

I'd be well peeved. I think individuals should be able to keep their own tips.

[dotty.]

how do you know that there is a thief? The management may be using this as an excuse for a number of possible reasons, one may even be that they are rubbish at cashing up and balancing tills/safe.
there should not be this kind of information generally shared amongst the staff, it can lead to an escalation of any loss as other employees may become opportunists. there should be an individual float for each shift at least. but maybe there is and the manager is using a 'dirty' float to maybe arouse less suspicion that there is a real suspect.

[albalass]

Speak to ACAS, 0845 747 4747, they specialise in employment law. I'm pretty sure though that withholding tips is classed as a deduction from salary and therefore either has to be written into the contract or signed for at a later date. Meantime, tell your daughter to pocket her own tips there and then, that way she'll get to keep them.

[DavideMexia]

what does your daughter contractr states in case of money shortage on tills ?

[dotty.]

albalass, if she has to have a staff search after her shift, how would she account for having money on her person? She could be instantly dismissed for that

[AlBags]

Surely one would have to actually have permission to 9even) individually pocket tips and walk away with them!?

[AlBags]

^ (even)

[dotty.]

there is probably a staff regulation that no one is allowed personal money on their person when on duty. that's just asking for trouble

[milly143]

It's not a good idea to have your own money with you in this sort of job. When I worked in a pub I once went to get some money out of my purse to by some cigarettes from the machine. As I was going through my purse the landlord walked in and of course thought I was putting money in my purse. He proceeded to immediately count all the money in the till, (which was actually slightly up) and it was so humiliating. I knew I hadn't taken anything and never would and he obviously reaslised I hadn't but it felt like he never really trusted me after that.

[albalass]

gosh, I've worked in loads of pubs and it's never been an issue with having money on your person. It's a sad reflection that the worst case scenario, ie stealing, is jumped to.

[Old_Geezer]

Just expressing an opinion, not in the legal profession, but I would be surprised if an employer can take tip money to make up from theft from the till. It is effectively stealing from one group of people (the staff) to compensate a theft from themselves.

As for the share-out, well I guess a company makes its own rules, although it should be part of the agreed terms of employment surely ? If tips are to be pooled and shared out, then the basis of that share-out ought to be known in advance, not made up on the spot.

[CEC]

Thanks everyone. She doesn't normally carry money on her. If she does want something she gets one of the managers to ring it in for her before her shift starts. some of the customers want the tip to go directly to her because she serves them all the time when she is working. Someone did say that if the manager takes the tips he has to declare it for tax purposes. It seems a bit f a grey area. Needless to say wages are not brilliant so the tips come in very handy. The ACAS idea seems to be a road to go down.
Thank you all once again.

[albalass]

ALL tips should be taxed. If the employer divies them up then they're subject to national insurance and tax, if a nominated member of staff does it then they're called a Troncmaster and have the responsibility of running the tronc scheme and deducting 20% tax. This tends not to happen though unless the business has been audited by HMRC or it's a large pub/ restaurant. Most folk just keep them and don't declare it.