Do Social Services have the right to expect you to move into a house you inherit the day the deceased passes away.

[Johnblor]

I have been requested to ask this question on behalf of a lady who does not use the internet.

This lady lived with her father in a house jointly owned by herself and her father and had been his carer for 5 years before he went into the nursing home.
A relative passed away at the begining of November and left her his house.
Unfortunately her father passed away just over 4 weeks later.
Probate has now been granted in respect of both houses and she is now the sole owner of 2 houses.
The council could not sell the house herself and the father were living in at the time he went into the nursing home as she was a joint owner occupier and carer and the house was her sole residence.
The council has now sent her a bill for £1,300 and when she queried it they said the house which herself and her father owned was no longer her sole residence and she could have lived in the inherited house and the house herself and her father lived in could have been sold.
The house she inherited is 70 miles from the home, the second house was in probate for the last 4 weeks of her fathers life. She knew she had inherited the house the day the relative passed away but her name was not on the land certificate at that point so officially she did not own it.
Does anybody know if the council is right in saying that she could have gone and lived in the house for the last 4 weeks of her fathers life which she did not officially own at that point? and is it within its rights to demand the father pay the full fees from the day the other relative passed away.
To top the lot the other relative passed away at 11 o'clock at night and the council wants her to pay the full fees for her father from that day.

John

[wolf63]

Logically I would say that the council would calculate any payment due from the date that your friend legally became the owner of the second house.

It would depend upon what date the council used when calculating the amount due - did they quote dates that the £1300 is due for?

The legal experts may be on the site later today. I hope that somebody will be able to help you.

[EDDIE51]

You need to get in touch with the CAB for advice , it is not reasonable to expect her to move instantly. The council are trying to get as much cash as they can out of this . For a start she was her Fathers carer so how could she have moved out ? ridiculous siggestion by the council. Possibly you could talk to the council on her behalf , they may well think again if the situation is explained fully.

[EDDIE51]

Here is a link to AgeUk the charity that is formed from Help the Aged and Age concern. There is a free phone number for legal advice on this type of problem.
Advice will cost nothing and they are the real experts at this type of legal problem. They are very friendly and helpfull
http://www.ageuk.org.uk/money-matters/

[Johnblor]

The dates the council quoted was from the 2nd to the 30th November 2011. She became the owner of the second house on the 15th February 2012.
The relative passed away at 11 o'clock at night on the 2nd November and at that time she was in bed in the house owned by herself and her father.
How she was expected to have moved to the inherited house 70 miles away and have the jointly owned property sold by midnight I do not know.
She did not hear about the death until the next morning.

John

[EDDIE51]

The council are being totally unrealistic, they are trying to get as much cash as they can now to make up for the spending cuts. Phone the free advice no I gave for AgeUk, they are really helpfull for stuff like this and they know the law / regulations inside out better than the council do in most cases.

[wolf63]

Has she told them that she did not inherit this house until February?

The council won't expect her to move into the house right away but the will/should calculate the amount from the date that the house became hers.

As Eddie says the CAB will help but there should be some sort of appeal process regarding the fees. She should just submit an appeal quoting all the dates.

[EDDIE51]

Reading this again it looks as though when the father went into the care home and until he passed away legally she only owned the original house jointly with her father.
The fact that she became an owner of another house afterwards should not be taken into consideration.
If the father had no other assets than the house I do not think any care fees should be payable at all. Definitely get the CAB or AgeUk on to this as the councils demands are ludicrous. It is too complicated to sort out here on a question and answer forum.

[Johnblor]

She did tell the council that she did not inherit the house until February but their answer was she did not fully own the house herself and her father was living in until the 22nd February but she continued to live in it.
She did say the difference was she was on the land certificate and had the right to live in it where as she did not have the right to live in the other inherited house until mid February.
In any case I think it is unreasonable for the council to expect her to live in a house 70 miles from the home when her father was in the last days of his life.
I know of at least 6 people who have been widowed and have returned to the marital home on the day the husband / wife has passed away and did not fully own it on the day of the death.
I do not know of a case where a husband / wife has moved out of the home while awaiting probate.

John

[bednobs]

sorry, i do not know the proper legal answer. However, on the face of it, it is all that unreasonable to ask her to pay £1300 towards her dad's care? did the dad have any cash in the bank? anything that can be sold to pay for his care?

[Johnblor]

Hi Bednobs

The only assetts the father had was his half share in the house plus about £14,000 in cash.
His occupational pension, state pension and attendance allowance was being taken towards his care except for about £24 per week.
The house had to be disregarded owing to the CRAG report stating the fathers share had a nil value on the open market because the daughter was a joint owner occupier.
At the time the father was in the nursing home it was the daughters sole residence.
Nobody would want to buy half a house with somebody in it and she could be there for another 40 years.
I could understand the council saying it was not the sole residence from 15th February but I think this could be a mute point as the inherrited home was 70 miles away.
As it happens the daughter had retired but if she had been working and commuting 70 miles each way every day to work and visiting the home would have not been practical as there is no rail line to the inherited home.
The daughter now has the inherited home up for sale and she wants to remain in the house where she lived with her father.

John

[joko]

it looks like they have jobsworth who is going strictly by the book and on technicalities ... but lacking in logic and common sense

i think you need a solicitor as its obvious an unusual case, and one i think, technically, they do have some rights on, daft though they are, so worth fighting it

[MartinBev58]

Hi John

Did she have the keys to get into the property she inherited?.
If not how did the council expect her to enter it?.
The other possibility is the will could have been contested by other relatives so she may not have been allowed to use the property until matters were settled.
My father passed away early in December and I owned the house we lived in jointly with my father.
My fathers ex partner has said she is going to contest the will and it appears she is within her rights to do so for up to 6 months after probate has been granted. The house is now in my sole name as probate has been granted.
As I owned half of the house before my father passed away I would be entitled to that if she wins but in theory she could take the other half.
As my father separated from her over 2 years ago I have been advised she is very unlikely to get half of the house but there is a very slight risk.
I am staying in the house as I have not got anywhere else to go. I have been living in it for over 8 years.

Martin

[karenmac60]

I'm afraid I agree with Bednobs. The woman now owns 2 houses - is it such a big deal that she pay something towards her father's care? Presumably she will sell one of the houses and make a rather hefty profit. £1,300 isn't that much compared to the value of a house. The council would not have expected her to move out, but they are saying that in theory this would have been possible and she should pay some for the time when she owned the second property.

[MartinBev58]

Hi karenmac60

I see what you are saying but technically the second house was in probate at the time and my question is could it have been used?.
She knew there was a will in her favour but a subsequent will could have been drawn up and she may have no longer been the beneficiary.
Also the will could have been contested and in theory it still could be.
What would happen to her £1,300 if somebody successfully contested the will and she had to give the house to them.
John has not answered my question '' did the woman have the keys to the inherited property. The executors could have had them and they were probably not obliged to hand them over until probate came through.

Martin

[karenmac60]

Yes, the house WAS in probate at the time, but it's not now. They didn't bill her at the time, they have waited till the property is hers before sending her a bill.

[MartinBev58]

Hi karenmac

I see your point but my question is could she have used the inherited property between her relatives death and her fathers death.
If the answer is no she had no alternative residence she could have used at the time.
As I have said before even though the property is now in her name the will of the relative could be contested and in theory her fathers will could be.
In theory the only property which could not be taken from her for the next 6 months is half of the property she jointly owned with her father.
Under some circumstances a court may allow the will to be contested out of the 6 month period so how do we know she will have the 2 properties or the money in say a years time?.


Martin

[bednobs]

i find it incredible that someone (the father) who has 14K in cash and half the value of a house still has his care paid for by me, who has about £14 in the bank and half the value of a debt of 100k for a house. While i get it that entitlements are entitlements, would it really really kill her to pay £1300 towards the care he had in the last days of his life? Personally, it seems much simpler just to pay it, rather than go the route of trying to get out of it

[MartinBev58]

Hi Bednobs

The problem is the daughter is a joint owner and has a right to occupy the house probably for many years.
This makes the fathers share of the house worthless or of very little value on the open market unless she sells the house prior to the father passing away. Would you buy half a house with somebody in it?.
The council can not make a person use the last £14,000 of their savings for their care.
That is the law.
My father passed away in December but never went into care and I inherited all of the estate.
Twenty people have phoned and called to say his ex partner should have the estate along with other people.
As his whole estate was willed to me I have taken the lot and I would do the same if a million people said I should not have it.

Martin

[MarkParkes]

Hi Bednobs

I see your point about you saying the father should have paid for his care but the law is the law and I do not think the daughter could be forced to pay for her fathers care.
A case happened in our family where a relative had to go into care. He had dementia and would have been a danger on the street due to his strength.
A nurse was off work for a week after being injured by him.
He was sectioned under the mental health act by the NHS.
He had very little in the way of assetts but his son / daughter in law accomodated him in their house which was worth £1,000,000 plus and had been caring for him for about 5 years.
Instead of being thanked for the amount of money they saved the taxpayer the Social Worker wanted them to sell their property, buy a smaller property, and to pay for the fathers care.
When they consulted a solicitor it was found the son / daughter in law had no responsibility to pay anything and the NHS was liable for all the funding.
After all this Social Services tried to blackmail the son / daughter in law into paying.
About 40 homes would not take him and 1 was found.
The Social Worker then said the funding would have to be approved at the next meeting which was 2 weeks away and she said if the son / daughter in law funded the care he could go to the home the next day but if the NHS was to fund him by the time the approval had happened the room could be taken by somebody else.
The son / daughter in law stood their ground as the father was blocking a bed in an NHS hospital.
It was strange how the funding was approved the next day and he was moved to the home the day after.

Mark

[Barmaid]

I think the LA have missed the point. The lady was the joint beneficial owner and thus the "half" of the property owned by dad has to be valued at whether there was a willing seller on the open market (probably nothing as it was a half share). It matters not whether the daughter owns another property. Unless this was a deferred payment scheme this is.

I suggest you have another good read of Crag. You particularly want to look at section 7. If the lady is over 60 they should disregard it, the fact that she was his carer should also mean it is disregarded, but importantly she was a beneficial owner. I'd tell the Council to get knotted.