Confession As Evidence Of Bad Character

[Mickey80]

Hi,

PACE Section 76(2) states:

If, in any proceedings where the prosecution proposes to give in evidence a confession made by an accused person, it is represented to the court that the confession was or may have been obtained—
(a)by oppression of the person who made it; or
(b)in consequence of anything said or done which was likely, in the circumstances existing at the time, to render unreliable any confession which might be made by him in consequence thereof,
the court shall not allow the confession to be given in evidence against him except in so far as the prosecution proves to the court beyond reasonable doubt that the confession (notwithstanding that it may be true) was not obtained as aforesaid.

What sort of things would render a confession unreliable; being under the influence of alcohol, drugs (either prescription or illegal), depression, anxiety/stress, and how is that determined.

For a confession to be treated as a confession does a person have to openly admit to a crime. For example, "I have committed fraud." Would, "I may have committed fraud", or "I could have committed fraud" be deemed a confession.

I know where talking semantics here, but the person may not have committed fraud at all because he actually doesn't know enough about the subject or he may have unknowingly committed fraud. I would have hoped that a possible confession needs some sort of proof. He did commit fraud and he's the proof.

Cheers

Mickey

[EDDIE51]

New judge is the only one who would know the answer to this.

[Buenchico]

The Crown Prosecution Service website offers some guidance on this subject:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/confession_and_breaches_of_police_and_criminal_evidence_act/

[Mickey80]

Thanks Buenchico, been there, doesn't included things like the mental state of a person when making a supposed "confession", i.e. drunk, drugged, stressed etc.

[Peter Pedant]

A bit of a technical question on criminal procedure
and there is only one poster who has got his finger on that pulse

Basically it is the confession that has incriminated him
and so he must have given the statement without advice from a solicitor as there is a rule in english law that you dont have to incriminate yourself.

The companies act was completely revised to remove this element

but it is all a bit late

withdrawal of a confession for this and that is commonplace
and people still get convicted....

your fren' needs a lawyer more than he needs advice from us

[Orderlimit]

Hey Mickey - are you are asking about confessions to be considered or used specifically for bad character evidence?.

Also - "I know where talking semantics here, but the person may not have committed fraud at all because he actually doesn't know enough about the subject". I think there is stated case law regarding something similar in a drugs trial, I will have a look when i get chance.

[jno]

ignorance of the law is supposd to be no excuse. On that basis, if you admitted doing X and X is a crime, then I think you've confessed to it.

But just saying "I may have committed fraud" won't amount to a confession unless you've said at least something about what it is you've done.

[Orderlimit]

"For a confession to be treated as a confession does a person have to openly admit to a crime. For example, "I have committed fraud." Would, "I may have committed fraud", or "I could have committed fraud" be deemed a confession".

I'd suggest it wouldn't matter If the accused was being questioned about bad character evidence as the prosecution would at minimum have to prove that, a) there was a crime and b) the accused committed that crime, to even consider one of the 7 gateways let alone using it as evidence.

(Prosensity evidence etc is another matter & complex).

[bednobs]

really eddie, New judge is the ONLY one who would know the answer?
don't get me wrong, i don't know it!

[Peter Pedant]

I cannot find anything at all on a confession being used as bad character evidence

apparently ( but it is not the case here ) if X and Y are co-defendants then X's confession can only be used in relation to X and cant be used against Y - even tho' Y's conviction may depend on X being convicted - honestly at this point my eyes glaze over and I think " over to the criminal lawyers ....."

[Mickey80]

Thanks everyone. Extremely useful once again. Cheers

[Orderlimit]

Mickey - sorry for just posting links but this may help with your Q re Sec 76 PACE: "What sort of things would render a confession unreliable;. .."

'The law relating to illegally obtained evidence and confessions as stated in PACE can be discussed under three headings:

(i) confessions that are obtained by oppressive means or are unreliable; (ii) confessions by mentally handicapped persons; and
(iii) entrapment.

Each are discussed in more detail here http://www.insitelawmagazine.com/evidencech15.htm

[Mickey80]

Thanks OrderLimit, you say;

"I'd suggest it wouldn't matter If the accused was being questioned about bad character evidence as the prosecution would at minimum have to prove that, a) there was a crime and b) the accused committed that crime, to even consider one of the 7 gateways let alone using it as evidence.

(Propensity evidence etc is another matter & complex)."

Aren't bad character evidence and propensity evidence the same thing?

Regarding the propensity issue, are you saying (in general) that if X says he has, could have or may have committed crime Y, why wouldn't the same rules apply as you mention above?

Let's say person X tells his drugs counselor that years ago he "might" have taken a Class A drug in the past but he can't remember exactly what is was. Person X has now now been arrested for possession of a Class A drug, (unconnected)

Wouldn't the "confession" to the counselor, if it ever came to light, need proving in some way before it was used as either Bad Character or Propensity evidence.

Would seem unfair just to assume he had taken the Class A drug when he might not have done.

Hope you see where I'm coming from.

Cheers

[Mickey80]

OrderLimit, excellent article on InSite Law btw

[Mickey80]

Would still like to find out if "confessing" whilst depressed, anxious, drugged or drunk would cause admissibility issues.

[Orderlimit]

Hi Mickey - ok, lets go back a bit.

Can you confirm that you understand that making a confession to some person is not the same as formally making a confession to the police and that bad character evidence is just what it says ie evidence of bad character?.

"Would still like to find out if "confessing" whilst depressed, anxious, drugged or drunk would cause admissibility issues".

Confessing to who?. A "confession" to some person makes that person a possible witness and there could be many issues of admissibility whereas confessions to a police officer comes under the rules of PACE and evidence could be made inadmissible by a breach of Pace.

"Let's say person X tells his drugs counselor ...."

Again, this is an unrealistic scenario. Even if some fool were to arrest a person for possession of a controlled drug on the grounds that some one told the police the accused said he may have taken something in the past then that is witness evidence of an ongoing investigation and nowt to do with evidence of bad character.

Sorry if I have got this all wrong.

[Mickey80]

OrderLimit, you're right, I think I am getting a bit lost

A thought a confession was admitting to a crime or possible crime to anyone, not just the police. I could tell my friend I've stolen a tin of paint from the local shop. Haven't I confessed my crime to him?

Or, in the eyes of the law, is a confession made to the police. Yes officer, I stole the tin of paint.

[Mickey80]

I get it now. Duh!! Bad day a school.

[Orderlimit]

Mikey - it's certainly a difficult subject especially as BCE is very case specific (even Peter pedant is confused & he can normally make his own sense from laws going back as far as say the legal system of the great Khan of the Mongol Empire).

The rules of confessions can be simplified I think by first looking at who the comments were made to and then decide which rules apply.

If yuo get any answers elsewhere from experts then let us know.