ChatterBank1 min ago
The Mail's Unplesant (And Undeserved!) Moral Superiority Strikes Again.
114 Answers
This time Steven Glover tuts and admonishes over celebrity deaths -
http://
His nasty snippy moralistic tutting puff piece almost falls off its see-saw, so keen is he to condemn stars for their lifestyle on one hand, and then confirm that he doesn't know that it contributed to their deaths.
For the record Mr Glover as a fan to various degrees of everyone famous who has passed recently, I am not blinded by their wonderful art and influence on my life, to their frailties and failures as human beings, and the absuses of their bodies during their lifetimes.
But guess what, I manage to feel sorry without the need to tut like some pompous old buffer in a saloon bar holding forth about 'young people' like being young and stupid is a crime that personally offends me.
Yes, part of my idols' lives involved abuses that may have taken them early, but I prefer to think of the good they have done and the pleasure they have brought, and shelve their weaknesses for another day.
What a shame Mr Glover could not find it in himself to do the same.
http://
His nasty snippy moralistic tutting puff piece almost falls off its see-saw, so keen is he to condemn stars for their lifestyle on one hand, and then confirm that he doesn't know that it contributed to their deaths.
For the record Mr Glover as a fan to various degrees of everyone famous who has passed recently, I am not blinded by their wonderful art and influence on my life, to their frailties and failures as human beings, and the absuses of their bodies during their lifetimes.
But guess what, I manage to feel sorry without the need to tut like some pompous old buffer in a saloon bar holding forth about 'young people' like being young and stupid is a crime that personally offends me.
Yes, part of my idols' lives involved abuses that may have taken them early, but I prefer to think of the good they have done and the pleasure they have brought, and shelve their weaknesses for another day.
What a shame Mr Glover could not find it in himself to do the same.
Answers
To make the connection that these 3 dead stars, may have died early because of their excesses during their lifetime is not insightful or clever, because it is bleeding obvious. My main problem with Glover is not his self rightuous disdained, it is his moral bias and selective finger pointing. So unhealthy persuits tha Daily Mail readers may share, like...
14:40 Thu 29th Dec 2016
Absolutely mushroom.
I am sure a stuffed shirt like Mr Glover would happily acknowledge the genius of the Rubaiyat Of Omar Khayyam, and be willing to gloss over the circumstances of its creation - namely an opium haze enjoyed by its author.
Art is not a cosy nine-to-five process. It is created by creative people who live extraordinary lives - they are by definition explorers and experiencers of life and everything it has to offer. That is what binds them together - not the fact that part of that experience may be bad for them in later life.
God forbid that any artists would be too busy thinking about life in their later years, to explore and enjoy their younger years, and give us all the art they create as a result.
I am sure a stuffed shirt like Mr Glover would happily acknowledge the genius of the Rubaiyat Of Omar Khayyam, and be willing to gloss over the circumstances of its creation - namely an opium haze enjoyed by its author.
Art is not a cosy nine-to-five process. It is created by creative people who live extraordinary lives - they are by definition explorers and experiencers of life and everything it has to offer. That is what binds them together - not the fact that part of that experience may be bad for them in later life.
God forbid that any artists would be too busy thinking about life in their later years, to explore and enjoy their younger years, and give us all the art they create as a result.
See I read that article as a fair and balanced view with nothing snippy or moralistic. He wasn't saying anything derogatory and seems on the face of it pretty factual. Maybe he wasn't blinded by adulation to the point that certain people can do no wrong nor take some responsibility for their life choices.
Prudie, my point is, if I am sad about someone's death, then I am not minded to pollute that sadness with sniffy moralising about what may have contributed to that death.
My mother is ninety-five, and she smoked all her life. When she dies, I don't think the fact that smoking probably affected her health is going to be uppermost in my mind.
When I think about George Michael, I am sad that he is gone, and I won't have a chance to hear any more of his wonderful music. The lifestyle choices he made are frankly none of my business, and do nothing to mitigate my sadness at his passing, or diminish the pleasure his art has given me.
If Mr Glover was ever to experience the depth of love and the pain of loss that created something like 'Jesus To A Child' - then maybe I would mourn him in a similar fashion, and be willing to overlook his tendency to be a moralising blowhard in his lifetime.
My mother is ninety-five, and she smoked all her life. When she dies, I don't think the fact that smoking probably affected her health is going to be uppermost in my mind.
When I think about George Michael, I am sad that he is gone, and I won't have a chance to hear any more of his wonderful music. The lifestyle choices he made are frankly none of my business, and do nothing to mitigate my sadness at his passing, or diminish the pleasure his art has given me.
If Mr Glover was ever to experience the depth of love and the pain of loss that created something like 'Jesus To A Child' - then maybe I would mourn him in a similar fashion, and be willing to overlook his tendency to be a moralising blowhard in his lifetime.
mikey - //But I agree....perhaps now is not the time. //
Exactly my point.
Pop stars damage themselves, they always have, they always will.
People blindly adore pop stars and ignore their faults, they always have, they always will.
Daily Mail journalists have always enjoyed making moral hay out of despair's greness, they always have, they always will.
Exactly my point.
Pop stars damage themselves, they always have, they always will.
People blindly adore pop stars and ignore their faults, they always have, they always will.
Daily Mail journalists have always enjoyed making moral hay out of despair's greness, they always have, they always will.
Best Answer for Mikey.
\\Maybe its not the right time to say things like, just after a death, but unfortunately its true. People like George Michael are worshipped by their fans, and maybe a little bit understanding about why their heroes have died wouldn't go amiss. //
But I agree....perhaps now is not the time.
12:16 Thu 29th Dec 2016
\\Maybe its not the right time to say things like, just after a death, but unfortunately its true. People like George Michael are worshipped by their fans, and maybe a little bit understanding about why their heroes have died wouldn't go amiss. //
But I agree....perhaps now is not the time.
12:16 Thu 29th Dec 2016
mushroom - //probably in the same place we'd be if all musicians were Pete Doherty. there's got to be room for everybody, and you're probably being a bit harsh on mr webb - currently uncool though he might be - when his continued commercial success indicates a still-strong following. //
I entirely take both points, but I think Pete Docherty is a singularly poor example, since he is rightly known for his endless drug binges and pointless arty foppery which is routinely fawned on by the NME like it is the second coming - but such piffle does not in any way translate into commensurate musical ability and artistic output, reflected in his meagre record sales and absence of anything approaching a career as a musician.
If you want to substitute Keith Richards, who could eat Docherty's drug intake for breakfast, and has managed to assist his band in seismically changing the landscape of popular music around the world for fifty years in the process, then we have a deal!
I entirely take both points, but I think Pete Docherty is a singularly poor example, since he is rightly known for his endless drug binges and pointless arty foppery which is routinely fawned on by the NME like it is the second coming - but such piffle does not in any way translate into commensurate musical ability and artistic output, reflected in his meagre record sales and absence of anything approaching a career as a musician.
If you want to substitute Keith Richards, who could eat Docherty's drug intake for breakfast, and has managed to assist his band in seismically changing the landscape of popular music around the world for fifty years in the process, then we have a deal!
YMB - //Well he is not the only one who has said things like this, what would you suggest Media censorship? //
Absolutely not, I am unsure what gives you the idea that I would - ?
//The problem is the media go OTT on a death almost raising people to God like status. //
They do, and I am firmly against the ludicrous public outpouring of grief from complete strangers that says more about their exhibitionism than their genuine feelings of loss.
// His timing does suck though. //
And that is entirely my point.
When we gather round Uncle Albert's coffin at the graveside, who wants to hear Aunty Stuffed-With-Morality-I-Must-Have-My-Say-And-Sod-Your-Grief telling everyone that he was always a drinker?
Timing is everything, and this was indeed lousy timing, but the sad fact is, I am sure it is entirely cynically deliberate, because it chimes with the Mail readership who would rather tut about 'young people today' than consider the loss of a musician to the world of music.
Absolutely not, I am unsure what gives you the idea that I would - ?
//The problem is the media go OTT on a death almost raising people to God like status. //
They do, and I am firmly against the ludicrous public outpouring of grief from complete strangers that says more about their exhibitionism than their genuine feelings of loss.
// His timing does suck though. //
And that is entirely my point.
When we gather round Uncle Albert's coffin at the graveside, who wants to hear Aunty Stuffed-With-Morality-I-Must-Have-My-Say-And-Sod-Your-Grief telling everyone that he was always a drinker?
Timing is everything, and this was indeed lousy timing, but the sad fact is, I am sure it is entirely cynically deliberate, because it chimes with the Mail readership who would rather tut about 'young people today' than consider the loss of a musician to the world of music.
Togo - // would urge you all to read the full article before taking a stance on it. ah has distorted the tenet of the article to make a self serving point and to attack the Mail, of course he himself thereby using George Michael's death in a thoroughly reprehensible way. //
From my experience, people who comment on news stories always acquaint themselves with the content of links in order to comment appropriately.
As to the notion that my post is 'self-serving' and 'uses' George Michael's death in any way whatsoever is utterly without foundation or credence.
From my experience, people who comment on news stories always acquaint themselves with the content of links in order to comment appropriately.
As to the notion that my post is 'self-serving' and 'uses' George Michael's death in any way whatsoever is utterly without foundation or credence.
Andy, I name-checked Pete Doherty precisely because of the inappropriate level of fawnery afforded him, being the diametric opposite of music press attention given to Cliff Richard. given Keith Richard is a better example of rock 'n roll hedonism, he's still up there in spite of it all, but he and Cliff Richard are still doing the bizz so that comparison wasn't what I was trying to say.
andy_hughes
The problem with this article is that it poses a bogus question, in order to make an unfounded point:
"Their loss is tragic. But why is no one saying George Michael and others died young after years of drug abuse?"
That's cobblers.
Everyone I know has mentioned George Michael's drug abuse.
Same with Amy Winehouse, Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston...all the way back through Elvis, Janis Joplin to Billie Holliday.
It's not that people aren't mentioning it. It's because it has absolutely no bearing on the enjoyment that the artist in question gave their fans.
But bravo on Glover to make a completely ridiculous point in order to gain clicks on his nasty little piece, which could have been titled:
"Pop Stars Do Drugs and Bears Use Their Woodland Retreats As Lavatories"
The problem with this article is that it poses a bogus question, in order to make an unfounded point:
"Their loss is tragic. But why is no one saying George Michael and others died young after years of drug abuse?"
That's cobblers.
Everyone I know has mentioned George Michael's drug abuse.
Same with Amy Winehouse, Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston...all the way back through Elvis, Janis Joplin to Billie Holliday.
It's not that people aren't mentioning it. It's because it has absolutely no bearing on the enjoyment that the artist in question gave their fans.
But bravo on Glover to make a completely ridiculous point in order to gain clicks on his nasty little piece, which could have been titled:
"Pop Stars Do Drugs and Bears Use Their Woodland Retreats As Lavatories"
Andy I'm glad you took on board the issue of timing when commenting on celebrity deaths after the Jimmy Young thread
andy-hughes
I stand by what I said.
If anyone knew Sir Jimmy personally, and posts that they are upset by what I have said, then I am happy to offer an apology.
Otherwise, he was a public figure, and anyone and everyone is entitled to offer an observation about his passing.
This is not the 'Obituary' section, nor is it the 'Let's be nice because someone is dead ...' section, it's the News Section.
andy-hughes
I stand by what I said.
If anyone knew Sir Jimmy personally, and posts that they are upset by what I have said, then I am happy to offer an apology.
Otherwise, he was a public figure, and anyone and everyone is entitled to offer an observation about his passing.
This is not the 'Obituary' section, nor is it the 'Let's be nice because someone is dead ...' section, it's the News Section.
he might be right, he might be wrong. It's worth mentioning as a possible cause (I've done it myself) but I wouldn't bother penning a whole moralistic rant about it, particularly if I didn't have a clue whether it was true or not.
Glover co-founded the Independent, which in its early days ran a foolish piece saying Freddie Mercury died because he continued a promiscuous sexual lifestyle long after Aids became a danger. They eventually had to print a letter from Ian McKellen saying he'd done nothing of the sort, he'd stopped immediately the risk became known.
Glover co-founded the Independent, which in its early days ran a foolish piece saying Freddie Mercury died because he continued a promiscuous sexual lifestyle long after Aids became a danger. They eventually had to print a letter from Ian McKellen saying he'd done nothing of the sort, he'd stopped immediately the risk became known.
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