Flying Scotsman.

[melv16]

I would like to know how you spend over £4m on a simple piece of machinery such as a steam locomotive. For that sort money you could put a rocket into space.
Have the fund raisers had their legs lifted?

[fiction-factory]

Can you put a rocket into space for £4 million.
Would it carry several hundred people comfortably?

[melv16]

You can't get 700 people on a loco:-)

[Tilly2]

It's taken ten years. The prices have gone up.

Saw it today!

[aelmpvw]

i'm puzzled as to why the flying scotsman is referred to as 'she'?

[fiction-factory]

I was assuming nothing had to be spent on the carriages it pulls

[VHG]

>>For that sort money you could put a rocket into space.

You are joking right ?

A quick search here shows that it costs between 100 million and 260 million US dollars for a single launch.

http://qz.com/153969/spacex-just-made-rocket-launches-affordable-heres-how-it-could-make-them-downright-cheap/

This web site says a NASA launch may cost 500 million per launch.

http://www.space.com/17556-giant-nasa-rocket-space-launch-cost.html

Another web site says ALL the Space Shuttle launches cost 209 BILLION US dollars, so at 125 launches that was 1.5 BILLION dollars per launch.

[fiction-factory]

Not sure how reliable this site is:

How much does it cost to send a rocket into space?
If the SLS is able to meet the $500 million target, it would end up being cheaper to fly than the space shuttle. The shuttle program cost about $209 billion (in 2010 dollars) over its lifetime and made a total of 135 flights, yielding an average cost per launch of more than $1.5 billion.

[fiction-factory]

I think melv16 is winding us up

[melv16]

I was being flippant VHG. Has an audit been done on the restorers accounts?

[VHG]

Also remember it costs more to repair old technology than new technology.

If your car broke down your local garage could go to any number of companies and get a replacement part.

But there are not replacement parts for Flying Scotsman lying around in warehouses.

EVERY part needing replacing in the Flying Scotsman would have to have been hand made as "one offs" and as we know, one offs are always more expensive than if parts are made on a production line.

Repairing ANY old technology and old buildings is not cheap.

[melv16]

I understand that, vhg. However, there are still engineering companies that make boilers, make castings and other engineering products that you get on a steam loco....It can't be rocket science making this stuff.

[New Judge]

Preserved steam locomotives have to have a “boiler ticket” (in effect, a permit from their insurers) to run in steam. This ticket lasts a maximum of ten years. When the ticket runs out the boiler, firebox together with all the steam passages and pipework subject to high pressure must be completely dismantled and any worn or corroded parts replaced. The owners usually take the opportunity to strip the rest of the machine at the same time. The cost of this work on a loco of the Flying Scotsman’s size usually costs a minimum of £1m and often much more. The main reason for this is that the parts are not mass produced and have to be manufactured on a bespoke basis and the skills needed are extremely scarce.

The NRM’s original estimate for the restoration (£750,000 and 12 months) was hopelessly inadequate even if all went well. However serious additional problems were found when the loco was dismantled leading to far greater work and costs than envisaged. Many heritage railways up and down the country restore large steam locos (and in fact some were involved in some aspects of the Scotsman’s overhaul). They benefit from much of the work being undertaken by unpaid volunteers. Even then the final costs can easily run to seven figures as some work can only be undertaken by certified professional craftsmen. The NRM did not benefit from much free labour and virtually all the work had to paid for.

Finally, large steam locomotives are not “simple pieces of machinery”. If you look at the bowels of one you will find it is an extremely complex beast built to very fine tolerances. British Railways used to have massive workshops undertaking heavy overhauls of locos on a production line basis. These no longer exist and keeping them running (the youngest of them 55 years old and many much older than that) takes time, hard work and lots and lots of dosh.

[melv16]

Thank you for your very comprehensive answer, NJ.

[seadogg]

Pretty well what the guys at NRM, York used to say NJ. "Every time we find a problem there's another begger underneath it"

[New Judge]

I forgot to add that there are a number of “new build” loco projects where steam locos are built from scratch. The most famous of these is “Tornado”, completed in 2008 and cost £3m:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Peppercorn_Class_A1_60163_Tornado

This latest one (The Prince of Wales) is expected to be completed around 2020 and the current cost estimate is £5m:

http://www.p2steam.com/

The website of the second one has a lot of technical detail and may help persuade you that large steam locomotives are far from “simple machines”.

[Togo]

Just an aside. As a youngster working for the N.B.C. I spent a well paid fortnight chipping the limescale from the inside of the saddle tanks of a coalboard shunting engine. 20mins in 1hr out. The rest of the 'lads' considered it a perk. It was about minus 10 all over the Midlands the fitting shop foreman appointed me and his son. When it came to cleaning the smoke box he gave the 2 biggest moaners the job. Believe me it was hot in there 2 weeks after engine had been drained and made safe. We wore shorts and boots only not even a mask. My back and legs were red raw but pit head nurse was kind. I am sure the two who got the smokebox are still trying to get clean.

[melv16]

NJ. Agreed, they're not simple machines, but they're not complicated bits of kit. As I see it all you've got is a boiler, a chassis, a couple of pistons with con rods and a few wheels with axles. This is all 1930's technology being made on 21st century machine tools & fabricating equipment. The fabricating equipment especially is all computer controlled and is far quicker and accurate than the machines in the 30's.

[New Judge]

The problem is there is not much "fabricating equipment" about, melv. Nobody wants 26 inch diameter cylinders and pistons or 6 foot 8 inch cast iron wheels with machined steel tyres these days (apart from owners of large steam locomotives!).

Raw materials to make this kit are expensive. The casting process for the larger items is virtually unchanged since they were mass produced but facilities are now more scarce.

I am a life member of one of the best heritage railway's in the country. The society has a well-equipped workshop and undertakes the renovation, restoration and repair of large locos like the Scotsman. It is also undertaking a "new build" project of a medium sized machine. As I mentioned earlier, we benefit from the huge amount of unpaid voluntary work our members provide. I see the balance sheets and the costs statements of these projects and believe me, a million quid does not go very far when spent on a large steam locomotive.