Road Tax

[tamborine]

Change of vehicle ownership needs new owner to have road tax BEFORE they drive the vehicle. Any refund to previous owner is from 1st of following month.

Isnt that unfair & to the benefit of DVLA?

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/88361/tax-disc-changes-everything-you-need-to-know-about-uk-road-tax

[New Judge]

This has been the case for a year now, Tamborine. The new rules came into effect last October. It means that for ever car sold the Exchequer receives an additional month's road fund licence fee (unless, that is, the vehicle is sold at midnight on the day the licence expires).

[ToraToraTora]

life isn't fair tambo, yes they basically get 2 months tax for 1 month on every change of keeper.

[ToraToraTora]

judge even then they get 2 months.

[fiction-factory]

That was the case before if someone cashed in their tax and the buyer had to buy their own tax disc

[New Judge]

Yes that was true if the seller removed the tax disc and claimed a rebate, f-f. However, before last year you could sell a vehicle with its unexpired tax disc and the new owner got the benefit of the remaining period. (The seller could reflect this in the asking price). Now that cannot be done.

Not sure about the "selling at midnight", 3Ts (and I must say I haven't properly thought it through). If I sell a car where the tax expires at midnight on 31st (and I sell it at midnight on 31st) I have no tax to reclaim and I do not need to pay for the following month. The new owner (having driven it away at midnight) only needs to tax it from the 1st, surely? (Stand by for millions of car sales to take place at midnight at the end of every month :-) )

[THECORBYLOON]

Under the old rules a full month had to be paid for even if the car had been bought and taxed on the last day of the month.

[New Judge]

But, of course, I had not thought of the "mechanics" of the DVLA system. I assume if I notify them of the sale I must say it took place on 31st and they will assume that the new owner took possession on 31st and charge him for the previous month. Technically, of course, midnight is neither on the 31st nor the 1st.

[ToraToraTora]

I see what you are getting at judge but as you say it's all about the date you put on the form.

[ToraToraTora]

on that basis judge midnight does not exist! even if you go to the nano second the day changes

[tamborine]

nephew drove off in purchased car. 5miles down the road cops seized car as road tax was not yet in his name. He is being fined £150 to retrieve car with further possible £1k for not being road taxed in said vehicle.

Buyer beware!!

[ToraToraTora]

so why did he not tax it first tambo? you can use the green slip to tax it straight away.

[tamborine]

coz the seller said he had taxed it. Nephew didnt know new rules tho
cops say it was advertised in media etc.

Well I haven't seen mention on TV & dont read papers everyday; he didnt know new ruling either.

[gingejbee]

Yes...it was well "advertised"...over a year ago....

[New Judge]

“…on that basis judge midnight does not exist! even if you go to the nano second the day changes”

This is a popular hobby-horse of mine, 3Ts (I’m easily amused!) and one which I frequently argue about albeit in a different vein. You often see, when describing the time at the middle of the day, “12:00am” or “12:00pm”. Neither of these is correct. 12 noon is the correct annotation as it is neither AM nor PM. Both those suffixes describe a time before or after noon and, by definition, noon can be neither before nor after noon. Confusion could reign because (as I have witnessed) some people interpret both these terms to be either the middle of the day or the middle of the night.

I extend this to 12 midnight. It is the dividing instant between one day and the next. If I said “midnight on the 31st” this could mean either the end of the 31st or the beginning of the 31st. Neither is correct because midnight is the instant between those two dates and to be sure of no misunderstandings it should be stated as “midnight 31st/1st”.

As I said, I’m easily amused so sorry for hijacking your question, Tambo. Back to your nephews troubles, my old school motto, which I had to write probably thousands of times when awarded “lines” was (and still is) “ignorantia legis neminem excusat” – which translated means ignorance of the law excuses nobody. Sorry !

[ToraToraTora]

Noon/midnight don;t actually exist then really judge, just labels given to a when a transition takes place.

[New Judge]

I think they must exist. The question is, "how long do they last?" A second? A millisecond? A nanosecond? All very tricky.

It is clearly necessary to label 12 o'clock (midday) in some way other than am or pm. I have definitely come across confusion where 12:00pm was interpreted by some people as the middle of the day and by others as the middle of the night. For noon it is quite clear: times between midnight and noon are "am" and times between noon and midnight are "pm". So those two points in time must exist to mark the passage from am to pm and pm to am. I naturally extend this to the date and suggest that midnight falls in neither day but marks the division between two days. Rather like a line dividing two areas on a map. It falls into neither area. What a philosophical bunch we are :-)

Sorry again , Tambo !!!

[gingejbee]

^^^avoid quite so much confusion by using 24-hour clock.

[New Judge]

Then how do you define the time in the middle of the night between 31st and the first? 00:00 on 31st or 00:00 on 1st ?????????

[gingejbee]

I did say "quite so much confusion" - not "all confusion"!

[New Judge]

Sorry :-)