the alley alley oh

[x georgia x]

the childrens nursrey rhime goes : the big ship sails on the ally alley oh the alley alley oh alley alley oh on the last day of september

i worked out the alley alley oh was the manchester shipping cannal but what was the big ship ?

[spudqueen]

I always thought the alley alley oh was the Atlantic Ocean!

[rojash]

Wikipedia says the Manchester Ship Canal, but that would seem to conflict with the last verse:
"The big ship sank to the bottom of the sea"

[dot.hawkes]

asn't it the ARMADA

[waimarie]

Quite a number of Spanish ships are recorded as being lost off the coast of Ireland in the last week of September 1588. The words of the rhyme fit very neatly into the Atlantic Ocean and the Spanish Armada of August/September/October 1588.

[Fibonacci]

I thnik I have read somewhere that Irish children used to call the sea the "Illey Alley O"

[x georgia x]

does any 1 no 4 sure it was the atlantic ocean and the armada ?

[jno]

wikipedia says it's popularly supposed to mark the opening of the canal, which was designed for ocean-going ships, so Manchester could become a seaport, rojash, so I guess it makes some sense.

[jno]

georgia the Spanish Armada was defeated at the end of July 1588 so I doubt that was related. Also, the words sound quite modern.

[Fibonacci]

Many armada ships did run aground off the coast of Scotland/Ireland in September 1588.

[x georgia x]

this dosent help has any 1 got the right answer and were did the date 1588 come from ?

[jno]

So sorry we're all letting you down georgia. 1588 was the date of the Spanish Armada; but it was in July, not September, so I don't think there's any connection with the rhyme. Nobody seems to know for certain what the rhyme's about but it has been traiditonally believed to be related to the Manchester Ship Canal. The big ship is probably just a big ship.

[x georgia x]

thankyou every its much appricated if any 1 ffingd out what the big ship was could you post the answer thankyou

[x georgia x]

i found it out the big ship was the bromley n it left the alley alley oh (the manchester shippin cannal) n sailed into the irish sea n sank on the last day of september thanks every 1

[DevonHawker]

Having grown up in Salford ,the Manchester ship canal actually terminated in Salford Docks not Manchester, can i add a little. Even though the thread has been "dead" for a while.

Someone answered earlier and said about the Irish children referring to the sea as the Illey alley o,bear in mind a lot of the workforce on the MSC were Irish "Navigators" (navvies as they became known in the area) so called as they dug ,by hand, the NAVIGATIONAL canal's of the time.
A lot of them settled in the area and there families remained for generations,my own included, so originally it may have been from the Irish Illey alley o, but Anglicised.
One of the reasons for this Anglicisation may have been down to the geographics of the area. I recall as a child in 1960s and 70s that at certain points you could look down the alleys that ran between the back to back terraced houses and quite literally see the big ship sailing "down the alley".

The Docks are long since quiet and the area is now a Marina ,the warehouses of yesteryear are luxury flats.

The foghorns on the "Big ships" at midnight on new years eve at the Docks are still alive each year,but only in my mind,as I go back to those childhood days.

I may be an adult and moved away,but those days in Lowry's Salford have many happy childhood memories.

[RickApe]

Just because some kids in Salford sang this ditty it doesn't mean it has anything to do with the Manchester Ship Canal. Canals have "cuts" or "cuttings" not "alleys". It's a coruption of the French Allez as in "alley-oop" said by acrobats, and "ho" as in "heave-ho" chanted by sailors when pulling up the sails. So the people would shout Allez Ho meaning "come on let's go!" which rang around the docks.

Tall ships needed to get underway for long voyages by the begining of autumn at the very latest to avoid being caught in the winter storms ie last day of September.

Simple really

[RickApe]

Just because some kids in Salford sang this ditty it doesn't mean it has anything to do with the Manchester Ship Canal. Canals have "cuts" or "cuttings" not "alleys". It's a coruption of the French Allez as in "alley-oop" said by acrobats, and "ho" as in "heavy ho" chanted by sailors when pulling up the sails. So the crew would shout Allez Ho meaning "come on let's go!"

Tall ships needed to get underway for long voyages by the begining of autumn at the very latest to avoid being caught in the winter storms ie last day of September.

Simple really

[RichardScott21]

It seems most likely the Ally Ally O- comes from the Irish nursery tune, and brought to the NW with the huge Irish diaspora, and adapted. It is logged in the Irish Musical archive from Dublin,.

The famous Clancy Brothers notably sang this song as the " The Big Ship sails on the "Illy Ally Oh" - rather than Ally Ally Oh. The Salford ship canal did not open until 1894- but had a large Irish community working on the docks canals etc, so it would have been well known.

The Irish Traditional Music Archive certainly list it as "Illy Ally Oh".

https://www.itma.ie/dustybluebells/explore/round-and-round-up-and-down-out-and-in-1/big-ship-sailed-to-the-illy-ally-oh

It is also listed as an 1880 tune, here

https://www.songfacts.com/facts/traditional/the-big-ship-sails.

So it is a long time before, the opening of the ship canal that it was being sung.

Certainly was part of the link to the sea and the communities around the docks. and chimes with children and playground songs- so popular in the past.

So originally a nursery rhyme - added to and extended in folk spirit- and probably perhaps with opening of the Manchester ship canal and largeIrish communities in Salford and Manchester, who knew the nursery rhyme already. And popularised later.

It travelled well across the playgrounds of the land- but mainly NW, I believe. Beautifully represented , in the Taste of Honey film with Rita Tushingham and Thora Hird- about her life and expecting a baby with a black Liverpool sailor.

The SS Arctic which left Liverpool and collided with another ship off Newfoundland- in 1859 may be the best candidate in terms of a ship going don - it was the biggest loss of life at sea in the Atlantic on a steamer before the Titanic. No women or children survived at all. 359 lives were lost. It sank on the 27th September, perhaps late in the day Though many ships over the years wuld have sank on this date, it seems the most prominent, and a big incident only later eclipsed in popular memory by the Titanic.

It was shocking news both sides of the Atlantic. according to Wikipedia-New York New first heard of the disaster on October 11, with the arrival of the survivors rescued by Lebanon. Later that day, Baalham's report, telegraphed from Halifax, was received at the Collins Ship offices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Arctic_disaster

So news travelled slow in those times. but a close fit. To an added rhyme to the ditty. Though a lot of ships went down, and it may be simpler origin.

rhttps://www.thoughtco.com/the-sinking-of-the-steamship-arctic-1774002

The Bromley is listed in a web chat as leaving Salford quays and sinkinking in the Irish Sea on the last day of September, but I could not find an internet record of this, in this quick search- it is not memorable in news terms - so it chimes more with the arctic- but perhaps it is just a simple rhyme after all that fits people in different places.

An Intriguing little mystery

Best
Richard Scott, Liverpool
I will ask next time I go in Merseyside Maritime Museum what they think.