Here's a poser for you

[Rev.Crowley]

If there is no afterlife, why should we bother with morality? If there is no afterlife, then the only purpose in life is to get what you can while you can.. Therefore, why not go out on a killing, robbing spree like the couple in Natural Born Killers? What difference will it make how you live your life as long as you get what you want? As Dostoyevsky said: 'If God does not exist, everything is permitted'. Just think about that.

[WendyW]

Basic Human Instincts, fear of retribution, Humanity, fear of what your peers would think of you ... how many more would you like. Nothing in lfe is simple and our actions and reactions and bound by many things ... thank goodness.

[mykola]

sounds like a good idea! now where is my glock !...no really we darent do what we want to because there are too many rich people out there that get richer and richer from us because they set down the rules that we have to live by... church ...bank...politic... god does not exist apart in my trousers ... and everything IS permitted you just d�rnt get caught.

[brawburd]

.... because we wouldn't get what we want (unless that's prison) ..... because we are intrinsically good and moral (although I know a few folk for whom that can't be said) ..... because the only way it would be okay is if everyone did it (and you know what would happen if ten of us promised to take off our clothes and run along Argylle Street on a Saturday afternoon - one of us would be jiggling around and the rest astonished we had actually done it!). p.s. ma money is on jbsilverbird as "the one".

[xyzzyplugh]

Because if energy you send out does bounce back at you, logically, it's best to give as much service as possible. But paradoxically, if your karma knows that you're giving out goodness just for the payoff it won't count. Pose that. Rev.Crowley .

[Rev.Crowley]

So everything is permitted, you just daren't get caught, eh mykola? In that case, you might as well take up heroin. You won't live very long, but you'll have fun while it lasts, isn't that right? Live fast, die young. Is that what it's all about? If so, then why not just get stoned and stay stoned until you die? If life is just about getting what you can while you can, then heroin is easy happiness. With heroin, you can feel like a king or queen, you can experience paradise on earth, instantly. Death, when it assuredly comes, will be pleasant and peaceful. Or could it just conceivably be possible that there is indeed more to life than material pleasure? Think on, young friends.

[Rev.Crowley]

Hey, xyzzyplugh, you believe in karma, do you? OK. This question isn't directed at you then. It's directed at atheists. If you believe in karma you have religious beliefs and you're not an atheist.

[froggequene]

At the end of the day regardless of whether or not there is a heaven or a hell, we must still find some way to live with one another and for most of us, we must be able to look ourselves in the eye when we look in the mirror. If we look at the animals in the wild, they don't appear to have any concepts of heaven or hell but they have evolved societies that allow them to live with one another, that have their own forms of morality and values, if they can do it, why shouldn't we?

[Rev.Crowley]

Froggequene, have you ever watched wildlife programmes? Have you ever watched a cute baby tirtle flailing for its mother while being eaten alive by a hungry gull? Have you ever seen a baby warthog being ribbed to a tattered piece of meat by lions? Animals are innocent, because they are only obeying blind survival instinct. They don't know any better. We know better. We know what's right and wrong, so please don't compare us with mere beasts. As to looking ourselves in the mirror and asking ourselves can we live with ourselves if we do wrong to others, the question remains, if there is no God, no afterlife, WHO CARES? WHO SAYS WHAT@S RIGHT AND WHAT'S WRONG? Now, I know you don't really want to think about it, but as you approach death, you will. Think on, think on.

[froggequene]

Reverend, I wasn't talking about inter-species relations, I was talking about a single species such as wolves, chimpanzees (not as cute and cuddly as one would imagine either) which evolve societies that allow them to live with one another and the other animals around them, be they prey or predator. Animal society may not be pleasant but it has it's own forms of morality. Even a monkey can be taught what's right and wrong, we're not so long out of the trees that we should forget where we came from. I wouldn't be looking myself in the eye if I did wrong but then again, what constitutes a wrong and what constitutes a right? The norms of one section of society are not the same another, the kids of the inner city estates have a very different concept of social norms and rights and wrongs to the child raised in the countryside. The individual decides for themselves, what is right and wrong based on what they have been taught and their surroundings, in our increasingly secularised society, I don't think God or the promises of an afterlife mean that much anymore.

[wildwood]

Perhaps your question should have been: 'If God exists, why does he permit 40,000 innocent children to starve to death every day?'

[KARL]

Gosh, Rev.C has fair caused some stooshie here. Awnyway, nobody seems to deny the sense in having rules of the road so that we all know what to expect of others and what is expected of us (the same, as it happens) in order that traffic is not just one humungous smash-up. Similarly, it seems to me that social rules, including morality, are very useful because otherwise it would be a free-for-all and the species would very quickly exterminate itself and that would pretty much be the end of the discussion. Those who created religions were, I believe (sorry if this upsets some, but I genuinely believe this), first and foremost concerned for the wellbeing of society and its individuals (their own to begin with, then wider to follow) - humanitarians, if you like. They set rules to be observed and since "for the good of others" is not as strong a selling point as "to enter paradise", the latter was chosen. The rules vary according to the conditions and societies where the founder lived but the aim was similar. After their death opportunists and/or power hungry manipulators have (and will continue to) used religion for their own ends (making their own interpretation of how god's will shall be done). There is a very significant element of truth in the saying (don't know whose it is) that all gods are manmade, good men make good gods and bad men make bad gods.

[TheHitMaker]

A good question. My philosophy is do what you want, but consider the consequences. If you want to go out and shoot lots of people, then if you can live with the life spent in prison (or the death by police marksman), the guilt (if you would feel it), the hate that an awful lot of people would feel for you, then it is your choice. Personally I couldn't - and nor could the majority of people, which is why it doesn't happen too often!

[wildwood]

Furthermore, if, as indicated by your question, the fundamental basis of your faith is fear of retribution in the afterlife you have a pretty warped sense of christianity. Is 'doing good' without anticipation of reward outside the perimeters of your comprehension? Perhaps you've never experienced the warm fuzzy feeling when you do a good deed for someone without them knowing it was you, in which case you have my sympathy for missing out on one of Men's basic emotions. Is it really necesarry to have an alternative motive other than respect, to live in harmony with your fellow human beings?

If you are disturbed by animals eating each other, consider that they are (in your own words) "obeying blind survival instinct", a behaviour which, if we are to believe in your religion, was ingrained when they were created as god's creatures. So talk to your mate about that next time you are on your knees.

Morality is, as has been stated above, a personal thing and varies slightly for different people. As most religions promote an acceptable moral standard for today's society, I have no problem living side by side with others who have beliefs different from mine. Your Hell, Fire and Brimstone attitude in the question however is now outmoded, and I only hope that the Q was posted with tongue in cheek and you are really a compassionate person to all.

[brawburd]

I am an atheist. I do not believe in any one religion or the general concept of religious allegiance. I do not know whether people are good or bad, I have met too many of each kind to know. I think we, as a Western society, label too quickly. e.g. "Karma" may be linked to Bhuddism, but like any other religion, this is based on people and how they think. So, karma is an idea which a certain religion has adopted - but not insofar as I can see, copyrighted! In that way, believing in karma does not make you religious. I AM INTERESTED ABOUT THE LENGTH OF RESPONSES ON THIS THREAD! Some soul searching I think?!

[Rev.Crowley]

wildwood - God does not permit 40,000 innocent children to die every day. MAN permits 40,000 innocent children to die every day. We are put on this Earth to make it a better place, yet we create an unjust, unequal world and we like to blame God for our mistakes.

[Rev.Crowley]

Hitmaker - like mykola, you think 'do what you like but don't get caught'. That is not a good basis for morality. Froggequene and wildwood - forget animal behaviour. Nature - particularly cruel and selfish human nature - is something we have to try to rise above. That is our purpose. Furthermore, wildwood - the reason you get a 'fuzzy feeling' from helping someone anonymously is because you were brought up with Christian values (or those of another enlightened faith). Karl - yours is the best answer yet, but God is not manmade. Good men conceive a good God because they are enlightened by a force that inspires them what is good rather than what is merely natural.

[wildwood]

My dear Mr Crowley, it is obvious that we could be here for months exchanging views, and in the end still be disagreeing.
It appears that in your opinion everything that is good in this world is your God's work, and everything that is bad is Men's fault. A bit onesided isn't it? Even if you were right, the annual premature death of millions of innocent people is an outright contradiction to your faith because, supposedly, it is well within your god's ability to prevent this.
BTW where do the black and asian people come from if we have all descended from the three couples that survived on Noah's ark? Some of the chinese dynasties go back thousands of years so there would not have been time for Men to evolve into the many races which inhabit the Earth now.

[mykola]

rev.c whats herion got to do with it... I.... dont need it

[Janetx]

Nil Desperandum, Rev. We all live in hope. Good men create a good god you say? Pick up a papermate!

[jenstar]

Anyway, back to the question... why should be bother with morality? Exactly because there is no afterlife, and life is precious. If we lived by no rules at all we'd just batter the heck out of each other and life would be pretty unpleasant (and frequently shorter) for everyone.