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Positioning of quotation marks in conjunction will full stops
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When writing an article that contains a few continuous quotes, where does one put the full stops at the end of paragraphs in relation to the quotation marks?
This is how I have written it, but someone told me that my positioning of full stops/quotation marks is incorrect -
Dave said, "When I first saw the dog I wasn't sure what to do, so I just froze. However, when I thought about it, I relaised that that was the worse thing I could have done".
"Once I had stopped, the dog seemed to calm down and was extremeley friendly towards me. I wish I had stood still in the first place".
This is how I have written it, but someone told me that my positioning of full stops/quotation marks is incorrect -
Dave said, "When I first saw the dog I wasn't sure what to do, so I just froze. However, when I thought about it, I relaised that that was the worse thing I could have done".
"Once I had stopped, the dog seemed to calm down and was extremeley friendly towards me. I wish I had stood still in the first place".
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Thanks sally
One person told me that I only needed two quotation marks - one at the start of the first paragraph and another at the end of the second one, but that didn't make sense to me.
Another person told me that the amount of quotation marks was correct, but that the ones at the end of the paragraphs should appear after the full stop. Again, that made no sense to me.
My spelling error came about as I tried to type too fast with fat fingers! :o)
One person told me that I only needed two quotation marks - one at the start of the first paragraph and another at the end of the second one, but that didn't make sense to me.
Another person told me that the amount of quotation marks was correct, but that the ones at the end of the paragraphs should appear after the full stop. Again, that made no sense to me.
My spelling error came about as I tried to type too fast with fat fingers! :o)
In the example you give, it would be unusual to start a new paragraph where you did. A new line to introduce a pause, yes, but since the individual is continuing to speak without interruption, a new paragraph is unnecessary.
A single pair of quotation marks are used to indicate a person's uninterrupted quotation. Thus the quotation marks at the end of the first paragraph and the beginning of the second are not needed. In your example, they form a device used by many writers to show that a second person has spoken. E.g.
''Spill the beans, Mugsy.''
''Dunno what you mean.''
The full stop comes at the end of the spoken words. The quotation marks always come after the full stop.
Anyway, there is some further advice on quotation marks here.
A single pair of quotation marks are used to indicate a person's uninterrupted quotation. Thus the quotation marks at the end of the first paragraph and the beginning of the second are not needed. In your example, they form a device used by many writers to show that a second person has spoken. E.g.
''Spill the beans, Mugsy.''
''Dunno what you mean.''
The full stop comes at the end of the spoken words. The quotation marks always come after the full stop.
Anyway, there is some further advice on quotation marks here.
Thanks Heathfield.
Well I stand corrented on the full stop being inside/outside the quotation marks.
The only reason I split the sentences into two paragraphs was that is how the website company that I am posting for wants it done - they don't like lengthy pargraphs. With that in mind, are the second and third quotation marks required, please?
Well I stand corrented on the full stop being inside/outside the quotation marks.
The only reason I split the sentences into two paragraphs was that is how the website company that I am posting for wants it done - they don't like lengthy pargraphs. With that in mind, are the second and third quotation marks required, please?
Heathfield is quite correct, of course, to say there was no need for two paragraphs in the passage you offered. However, if you ever do find occasion to include lengthy quoted material...ie material that the original writer set out in paragraphs...it is usual to put quotation marks at the start of every paragraph but only at the end of the final one.
In British English - again as Heathfield says - the quotation marks always come after the final piece of punctuation such as a full stop, question mark or exclamation mark. This is different from the usage in American English sometimes.
For example, I would certainly write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner'? whereas an American would write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner?'
Why? Because the question is mine, not President Kennedy's. Thus, it comes at the end of my words, not his. Basically, in the UK, any punctuation goes with the words it applies to.
In British English - again as Heathfield says - the quotation marks always come after the final piece of punctuation such as a full stop, question mark or exclamation mark. This is different from the usage in American English sometimes.
For example, I would certainly write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner'? whereas an American would write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner?'
Why? Because the question is mine, not President Kennedy's. Thus, it comes at the end of my words, not his. Basically, in the UK, any punctuation goes with the words it applies to.
The simple answer is to do what newspapers do. If the first quote is earlier than the second and part of the same narrative, as here, separate them by three dots and insert the whole within one set of quotation marks. The dots show a break in the narrative and the use of a capital letter to start the second part shows that part of what was said has been omitted, pehaps as irrelevant or superfluous, rather than that the speaker simply paused during one sentence. So you might put " I realised that that was the worse thing I could have done... Once I had stopped (etc) "
That avoids separate quotation marks or the use of words such as " he added" or "he went on to explain"
That avoids separate quotation marks or the use of words such as " he added" or "he went on to explain"
Note how, in QM's example, the meaning of Kennedy's words change with the move of the question mark from behind to in front of the quotation mark.
If it's after the quotation mark, Kennedy makes a statement.
If it's before the quotation mark, Kennedy is asking for confirmation that he is indeed a Berliner.
Similarly, with an exclamation mark...
"He said "You're an idiot!" = He made an emphatic statement.
"He said "You're an idiot"! = He made a statement that surprised me.
Great stuff, English, yet there are those otherwise sensible people who question the need for punctuation to be taught in schools! Oh dear!
If it's after the quotation mark, Kennedy makes a statement.
If it's before the quotation mark, Kennedy is asking for confirmation that he is indeed a Berliner.
Similarly, with an exclamation mark...
"He said "You're an idiot!" = He made an emphatic statement.
"He said "You're an idiot"! = He made a statement that surprised me.
Great stuff, English, yet there are those otherwise sensible people who question the need for punctuation to be taught in schools! Oh dear!
Heath, I agree that it would be unusual to start a new paragraph there, but to make the rest clear you need to say "The quotation marks always come after the full stop AFTER THE SPOKEN [or better QUOTED] WORDS."
After that SurreyGuy said "I stand corrected on the full stop being inside/outside the quotation marks." I hope he had read to the last section of the guide you gave him a link to, beginning
"Finally, there remains the problem of whether to put other punctuation marks inside or outside the quotation marks. There are two schools of thought on this, which I shall call the logical view and the conventional view."
It looked to me as tho your guide was not going to explain the ins and outs of the first few quotes until I ploughed through to the end.
To make confusion worse confounded Quizmonst seems to have got Am and E arsy-varsy, but you do make it clear in your following post.
Many thanx for the link. It is not often that one sees this 'logical view' so wholeheartedly espoused. I have long fought editors tooth and nail over it.
After that SurreyGuy said "I stand corrected on the full stop being inside/outside the quotation marks." I hope he had read to the last section of the guide you gave him a link to, beginning
"Finally, there remains the problem of whether to put other punctuation marks inside or outside the quotation marks. There are two schools of thought on this, which I shall call the logical view and the conventional view."
It looked to me as tho your guide was not going to explain the ins and outs of the first few quotes until I ploughed through to the end.
To make confusion worse confounded Quizmonst seems to have got Am and E arsy-varsy, but you do make it clear in your following post.
Many thanx for the link. It is not often that one sees this 'logical view' so wholeheartedly espoused. I have long fought editors tooth and nail over it.
As I read it, it look to me as if the full stop of the first paragraph should be inside the quotes and there should be another inside the quotes and the end of the second paragraph.
However, I would also have put an additional full stop after the quotes at the end of the second paragraph as that is where the full sentence that "Dave said" ends.
Any views?
However, I would also have put an additional full stop after the quotes at the end of the second paragraph as that is where the full sentence that "Dave said" ends.
Any views?
Mallam, I simply do not understand your penultimate paragraph. I didn't get the two brands of English vice-versa. We (British) put punctuation-marks with the words they apply to, as I clearly stated. Indeed, I said in my second paragraph precisely what you said in your first! The Kennedy illustration made that perfectly plain.
You're surely not telling me that we would put the question-mark immediately after Berliner and before the closing quote-mark, are you?
You're surely not telling me that we would put the question-mark immediately after Berliner and before the closing quote-mark, are you?
Of course I'm not telling you to emulate such American misbehaviour, QM. And of course the Kennedy illustration made it perfectly plain that you don't. But you did say "In British English - again as Heathfield says - the quotation marks always come after the final piece of punctuation such as a full stop, question mark or exclamation mark. This is different from the usage in American English sometimes."
And that is precisely what is NOT different from the conventional usage in American English. The difference of the logical� practice (regrettably not seen that often even in Britain) from the conventional usage in American English is that the quotation marks do NOT always come after the final piece of punctuation. You say yourself �I would certainly write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner'?�
And that is precisely what is NOT different from the conventional usage in American English. The difference of the logical� practice (regrettably not seen that often even in Britain) from the conventional usage in American English is that the quotation marks do NOT always come after the final piece of punctuation. You say yourself �I would certainly write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner'?�
QM, I agree with you that the rules are quite clear-cut, but if you�re a writer/proofer (as am I), and practise what you preach about referring to a reputable grammar guide (and it looks as if like me you have checked the guide Heathfield gave us a link to), you really ought to proof-read even such ephemera as this. As you see from my posting of 1700h I think you are spot on, and have merely garbled your account of the state of play between BrE and AmE.
For a start, by any standards you should not have written �I would certainly write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner'?� but �I would certainly write �When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner'?��! So let�s use another convention: you say yourself
� I would certainly write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner'?
Your English is obviously BrE, as you say
� an American would write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner?'
But clearly your quotation marks do NOT always come after the final piece of punctuation!
Like Heathfield you have omitted to make clear that in BrE they only DO when the final piece of punctuation belongs to the quote itself, as I tried to indicate in my last posting by the capital letters with which I emphasized my emendation of his original statement:
"The quotation marks always come after the full stop AFTER THE SPOKEN [or better QUOTED] WORDS."
Your vice versa of the arsy-varsy made my head spin!
For a start, by any standards you should not have written �I would certainly write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner'?� but �I would certainly write �When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner'?��! So let�s use another convention: you say yourself
� I would certainly write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner'?
Your English is obviously BrE, as you say
� an American would write, When did President Kennedy say 'Ich bin ein Berliner?'
But clearly your quotation marks do NOT always come after the final piece of punctuation!
Like Heathfield you have omitted to make clear that in BrE they only DO when the final piece of punctuation belongs to the quote itself, as I tried to indicate in my last posting by the capital letters with which I emphasized my emendation of his original statement:
"The quotation marks always come after the full stop AFTER THE SPOKEN [or better QUOTED] WORDS."
Your vice versa of the arsy-varsy made my head spin!
Hello, Quizmonkey. Thx for pointing out the difference between you and Quizmonster. It didn�t help that in my setting of Firefox both names are truncated so that I can only just see the difference, even in close proximity as they appeared here. It would now be very perverse of me to persist in calling either of you QM, esp. since a site search has revealed the existence of Quizmouse and would no doubt reveal more QMs. Until your appearance however, the QM on this thread was Quizmonster, and I was just copying Heathfield�s appellation for him.
My post of 17:00 is in reply to his of 16:21, where I hope it is obvious that I am not even partly confusing you. (Or rather conflating the two of you, since I may still be confusing both of you independently!)
My post of 17:14 is in reply to what I thought was his of 16:21, and accordingly does conflate the two of you.
But it is not a confusing conflation, and it is quite clear that after my opening remarks agreeing with you about the rules, all the rest is referring back to Quizmonster�s post of 16:21, tho I hope you would agree that there is no reason why what I say about Heathfield�s link and proof-reading postings shouldn�t apply to all of us.
I hope that clarifies my previous painstaking efforts to sort this mess out.
What was wrong with the punctuation in the penultimate para of my last post?
My post of 17:00 is in reply to his of 16:21, where I hope it is obvious that I am not even partly confusing you. (Or rather conflating the two of you, since I may still be confusing both of you independently!)
My post of 17:14 is in reply to what I thought was his of 16:21, and accordingly does conflate the two of you.
But it is not a confusing conflation, and it is quite clear that after my opening remarks agreeing with you about the rules, all the rest is referring back to Quizmonster�s post of 16:21, tho I hope you would agree that there is no reason why what I say about Heathfield�s link and proof-reading postings shouldn�t apply to all of us.
I hope that clarifies my previous painstaking efforts to sort this mess out.
What was wrong with the punctuation in the penultimate para of my last post?
Mallam, Quizmonkey, Quizmaster and I have often had our user-names abbreviated to QM, causing occasional confusion, as above. Right here, you seem to have decided that two of us are the same person despite our different names. You could scarcely be more wrong in more ways than one! (Now you tell me there's a Quizmouse and that truly does threaten to make confusion worse confounded!)
Accordingly - based strictly on the length of time each of us has been an AnswerBank user - it was established that I qualified as QM1 and the others as 2 and 3...plus now, I daresay, 4. One or two people do use that nomenclature. You're more than welcome to join them.
Re the matter in hand, I'm not that concerned and will just leave it to you two writer/setters to sort it - and each other - out. I know what I wrote and I'll just go on using the 'rules' as set out in A Study of Standard English and Approach to Standard English, the joint backbones of the subject as presented in Scotland's schools throughout the 1940s/1950s.
One or two concessions I have made to modernity - apart from occasionally dipping into New Hart's Rules - are that I now don't do such things as hyphenating the words 'to-day' and to-morrow or making even addresses a minefield of punctuation!
Over to you!
Accordingly - based strictly on the length of time each of us has been an AnswerBank user - it was established that I qualified as QM1 and the others as 2 and 3...plus now, I daresay, 4. One or two people do use that nomenclature. You're more than welcome to join them.
Re the matter in hand, I'm not that concerned and will just leave it to you two writer/setters to sort it - and each other - out. I know what I wrote and I'll just go on using the 'rules' as set out in A Study of Standard English and Approach to Standard English, the joint backbones of the subject as presented in Scotland's schools throughout the 1940s/1950s.
One or two concessions I have made to modernity - apart from occasionally dipping into New Hart's Rules - are that I now don't do such things as hyphenating the words 'to-day' and to-morrow or making even addresses a minefield of punctuation!
Over to you!
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