Is this the end for liberal leaning Clarke

[youngmafbog]

Today DC will tell Clarke to take is soft judging and stick it where the sun dont shine, and about time too.

Just how much longer can this man survive as a Tory. It appears the liberals were all for voting the soft reforms in with him so I think we know where he really belongs.

Boris got it right on the head, "Soft is the perfect way to enjoy French cheese, but not how we should approach punishing criminals. It's time to stop shorter sentences and get-out clauses."

We need more jails or begin outsourcing, not less.

[Kromovaracun]

This is in your esteemed opinion as an experienced researcher on criminal behavior, is it?

[Kromovaracun]

*behaviour. Pardon firefox's American spellchecker.

[Kromovaracun]

On a serious note (and in response to the question, which I think is a very good example of this), I'd like to say how sick I'm getting of hearing knee-jerk reactionary people and journalists talk about crime as if it's some really, really simple phenomenon that can be solved with a click of your fingers. Oh! If only all those judges and government organisations and law enforcement agencies would just listen to you! They'd have all their problems solved. Personally, I don't consider myself particularly well-acquainted with what the available evidence suggests about what works and what doesn't, so I'm reluctant to make that many hard-and-fast conclusions about it.

I'm sorry, but unless you've really immersed yourself in the matter or have any other pressing reason why you should be believed, then your opinion simply is not valid. And the government (and for that matter everyone else) has every right not to listen to you. That's why I dismiss my own opinions on the subject and that's also why I dismiss yours.

[Gromit]

Clarke came out with this proposal for several reasons.

1. Prison mostly doesn't work at stopping criminals reoffending
2. The prisons are full, there is no room for more at longer sentences.
3. There is not time to build more prisons to deal with the immediate problem
4. There is not the money to build more prisons
5. Keeping people in prison is very expensive. In these times when public spending needs to be lowered, we can find better things to spend on.
6. The Coalition wanted this, there was enough support. If anyone should resign it is Cameron for being weedy and giving in to a small vocal minority.
7. Prison ships or exporting criminals is a fantady. It will not happen.
8. The death penalty (before someone mentions it) would not decrease the prison population quickly enough or fadt enough.

So apart from sacking Clarke, how would you solve the prplem of a larger prison population than we can afford?

[Gromit]

Apology for typos above, I'm sure you can work out the funny words.

[Davethedog]

I think you mis judge Ken Clarke his concerns had nothing to do with Liberalism and everything to do with cost cutting. Would have save £130m PA apparently.

[bazwillrun]

The only reason i want him out is his pro-EUccp stance

[R1Geezer]

Gromit's points:
1. Then it needs to be tougher, longer
2. Outsource
3. See 2.
4. See 2.
5. See 2.
6. Well he shouldn't give in,, but it's not resignation issue
7. Say's Gromit, doesn't make it Gospel
8. Agreed, but life should mean life, see 2.

[Gromit]

Gromit's response to R1Geezers respose to Gromit's points:
1. There is no more room for longer
2. By outsource do you mean export prisoners? If so that won't work*
3. See 2.
4. See 2.
5. See 2.
6. The Tories being seen as soft on criminals scared some.
7. Outsourcing will not work*
8. Agreed.

Outsourcing will not work because.
1. The object is to save money, and this would be expensive
2. No country is offering this service
3. Midnight Express was a work of fiction
If it is a great idea, why is no other western country using this method?

[R1Geezer]

to Gromit's "outsourcing won't work" points:
1. It'd will cut the cost by at least 50% per prisoner per year, in poor countries where the average wage is £50 a month, looking after prisoners in a basic fashion would be very lucrative.
2. No one was selling coca cola until there was a demand, put out for Tender, see what happens.
3. This is about reality. Other haven't tried it because it's probably against all the liberal thinkers and they create to much noise about Ooman rights etc. The US do it internally by state up to a point. But the EU would be too shackled by rules and regs.

[youngmafbog]

So my opinion is worth nothing becasue I have not imersed myself in the topic.

Well well. We had better shutdown this site and only allow experts to debate.

What nonsence.

[youngmafbog]

Only a certain percentage of the population offend. Make it tougher in prison with better rehabilitaion (inside) and your re offending rates drop.

Outsourcing would work becasue as R1 points out wages/land etc are cheaper abroad. This is only viable for long term prisoners and apart from the bleeding hearts liberals and the HRA I cant see anything stopping it.

No one offering the service; has anyone asked ?

[Gromit]

// It'd will cut the cost by at least 50% per prisoner per year //

Do you have a link to this cost saving. It looks suspiciously made up. What is the cost of securely transporting these prisoners to their new Gulag?

[Gromit]

Why do you think no one has asked? Because it is a no goer.

[R1Geezer]

Yes Gromit it's an estimate based on what it costs to keep a prisoner here and what it costs in places like Turkey/ Thailand etc. Essentially if we doubled what it cost in the target country then that is way less than half what it cost here. Ok we'd have to fly them there in a Hercules but so what? After the initial export it'll be in dribs and drabs any way so much cheaper. The real saving though comes later when criminal scum realise they are going to a proper nick without Xboxes and Sky TV, they won't want to go back. Tada less criminal scum! I should be in the Home office!

[Gromit]

I would be interested to see your link to the costs of keeping prisoners in Turkey on which you are making your guestimations. Again, you appear to be guessing the cost is half. Do you have any evidence of that other than made up facts that just arrive in your brain?

[R1Geezer]

So you'd go with the idea on principle then gromit, you just need costings?

[starone]

Some of the trouble is what happens when they come out of prison. Just one example (fortunately for me I do not know many real villains) a young man I know of was sentenced to 2 years for a gun crime - mugging someone with the aid of a gun. When he had finished his sentence he was sent out on to the streets again - no job - no home (unless you count the room in a lodging house) no particular help from anyone. So a few weeks later he is back in prison for the same type of crime. How do you cope with them? Perhaps we should put them all in a rocket and shoot them out into space where we could forget them.

[ludwig]

We'd save an awful lot of money if we just closed the prisons and let the criminals wander around. It would also solve the overcrowding problem.

When you take into account the fact that prisons don't work anyway - it's a absolute no brainer.

[R1Geezer]

Our "prisons" don't work ludwig, important distinction.