Hanging

[joules99]

Seriously do you think hanging/the death sentance should be bought back. I dont think I've ever spoken to anyone who is against it.

[Ducati]

El D - Please explain what is not 'black and white' about Payne, Huntley, West, Nielson, Sutcliffe, Shipman....................I could go on.

 

Personally, I don't believe in the death penalty, but I do find it odd that you seem to think that these people, who are inherently evil, deserve our help. They are beyond rehabilitation, so why bother (although the middle aged well to do women in the Howard League for Penal Reform would, no doubt, like to see them live a life of unparrelled luxury - yes I know that comment is a bit on the flippant side).

[pjm007]

EI D, I certainly haven't got a 'pathetic little mind'. I think that the death penalty is too extreme and prison is too soft. I'm speaking as a parent and my argument focusses more on paedophiles and sex offenders, who really don't deserve anything less than torture. BTW If someone like Roy Whiting or Ian Huntley put my children through that sort of ordeal I would most certainly 'have the bollox' to do the torturing myself and It would also give me satisfaction to see these sick and vile animals squirming around on the floor, slipping and sliding around in their own blood. If they think they have the right to inflict pain and suffering to fellow human beings then they should be treated with the contempt they deserve. In this case, what goes around should definately come around ! 

[spikeybob]

There is one thing that people should ask themselves over the death penalty. The people that do commit murder or serial killing are not the type to be put off by the threat of the death penalty. Most people who have commited these crimes in the past are what physciatrists call sociopaths and because of this train of thought thay think they are either doing the right thing or that everyone will agree they are doing the right thing or that they never will be caught because they are far more cleverer ( is that a word ) than eveybody else. My main reason for not having the death penalty is that if you put yourself in this situation.

Imagine you have been picked up near a murder scene and you have absolutely no alibi at all and it just so happens that everything points to you because the actual murderer has left no clues and you are charged with the crime knowing you are innocent would you still like the death penalty to be in force. 

My other argument is that no-one can do their job correctly at 100% of the time all the time and that goes for the police, cases in the past and someone has mentioned the Birmingham Six as an example all alibi and confessions where forced out of those people to make them look guilty nad that is down to sloppy police work and being over zealous. And thats why I do not want hanging back in this country as  too many mistakes have been made and if they where dead now you cannot bring them back.

[pjm007]

Also EI D, While your quite liberal in handing out insults to people like me about having 'pathetic little minds', If you aren't willing to read and respect other peoples opinions then I think it is infact you who has a 'pathetic little mind' !

[Ducati]

My post should, of course, read Whiting, not Payne.

[FP]

I don't think any human is justified in taking the life of another, unless it's pure self defence.  I would hate to see the death penalty brought back.  But I do believe that life imprisonment should mean just that ' imprisoned for life'.

[delilahcat]

pmj007, your last but one post made me feel sick to my stomach. I don't see any difference bewtween the sick individuals you are condemning and you yourself. If violence breeds violence - and there's little doubt that it does - peopel like you just help to continue the mad cycle of destruction.

Those of us who are civilised believe that violence, torture and murder are wrong, no matter who commits them and what justification they think they have.

And silly moo, read El D's post above and you'll see that one of the highest profiled Christians in the world has an appalling record with regard to inflicting the death penalty(George W. Bush)

[kaktus]

deliahcat and El D my thoughts exactly.
I find it very difficult to compose an answer to this thread without going on for ages. So I excuse for any rambling and/or incoherence.

I'm utterly chocked by people who honestly believe they could torture another human being no matter what they did, one thing is to say it in anger, and another is to firmly believe they're capable of doing it. I see no difference between that and the criminal in question.

Our judicial systems in the Western World are supposed to be objective (at least as objective as anyone can be), and one can never measure pain, besides punishment is not for the benefit of the victim, but society's punishment upon a wrong doer. Otherwise we could just as well reinstate eye for an eye tooth for a tooth.

The arguments for and against capital punishment is many, but it's difficult say anything else than my moral tells my that killing is wrong, no matter who the killer is - state or person. Who has the right to take another persons life? And as all ready said before, one innocent killed is one too many.

[Ducati]

Delilacat, I would still be interested in hearing El D's justification for "its never black and white..." and "...seeing these people and wanting to help, not punish them...." when it comes to the likes of Whiting, Huntley, Neilson, Sutcliffe etc....

 

Seriously, do these people really deserve our help? Seriously?

[delilahcat]

Ducati, the people who commit such crimes cannot be classed as 'normal', whatever that may be. I am NOT saying this to excuse their crimes, and I certainly don't think they should be cossetted - of course they must be punished, and there are many circumstances where life should mean life. But it would benefit society far more to try to find out what drives such people to commit these atrocities and attempt to 'help' them (if that is the right term) than to murder them.

In the same way that, if you beat a child, you are saying that it is okay to be violent, if the state murders someone, it sends out a message that killing isn't wrong. That's why the USA is one of the most violent places on earth, and why murder and violent crime is so common there. Do people really want the Uk to become like America?

[Ducati]

That's fine, and as mentioned in an earlier post, I am against the death penalty, I just don't understand trying to help, and thereby by definition, showing compassion, to the unhelpable: the people I mentioned are inherently evil, and therefore for their absolutely heinous crimes should live a life of absolute misery.

 

This is a way of punishing them for their awful crimes: to do anything but punish them sends completely the wring message.

[Bangkok]

The only basis on which I could support the death penalty is if the person condemning the accused is willing to a) carry out the punishment and b) is willing to be exectuted if there was proven reasonable doubt about the safety of the original decision

Any volunteers?

[Bangkok]

mdoo98, suggest you relocate to Burma.  Incidentally, how does someone convicted of GBH get twice the punishment? 

A sense of fear?  OK, all people holding anti-social, reactionary views about serious issues get electrocuted.

[El D]

yes, yes, fear is what we need, and lots of it. I would love to live in a climate of fear.

Ducati - in essence, you are saying these people cannot ever be classified as something other than their crimes. Their crimes are not the sum of these people. Think about it - many of those you mention had families who loved them, partners who could never believe they could do such things, clean records, paid their bills, contributed to society, loved those around them in turn. They were part of society, a product of many factors just as you or I. Who knows why they decided to kill - but I for one am curious. It is only through understanding these people, what drove them to commit these crimes, that we can truly prevent crime and especially ones driven through personality such as murder and rape. In addition, once we understand - we can help.

You make a vast assumption in stating these people are inherently evil and cannot be helped. What, it's genetic? Why bother eh? Logically speaking, this does nothing. Someone kills, they get killed, someone kills, they get killed. They can only be punished once they have killed someone - that's a mad way of dealing with a problem. Fear of punishment does very, very little - how many people do you believe commit crimes thinking they will get caught?

I think many of the people who have answered on here need to go and have a long hard think about what kind of person they are and want to be. Striving for higher ideals despite our own personal feelings defines us as greater than the animal justice many on here espouse. I am disgusted by their crimes no less than you, but firmly believe they can be helped, they must be helped, and we must do the helping as members of the human race and a so called civilised society.

[FP]

Quite honestly, we never know what crimes we ourself might commit.  We cannot forecast what life holds for us.  We might become mentally unbalanced and kill, or it might happen to one of our family.  Mdoo98 do you seriously believe that if your brother or son got mixed up in a gang that stole a car, it would be best to shoot him!   I doubt it.  And please don't say it could never happen - nobody knows.  'There, but for the grace of God, go I'.

[pjm007]

EI D, I have had a long hard think about the kind of person I am ( It took about 2 seconds ). The conclusion is that as a father of two beautiful children, who I cherish and adore, my role as a father is also 'protector' and 'avenger' to anyone who dares to harm my children. I am a civilised human being but that does not stop from feeling that some sick individual should get his/her 'just deserts'. Surely there must be some more parents on this thread who can understand my feelings on this subject, surely I am not alone in wanting to inflict harm/torture on these vile people that choose to 'meddle' with our childrens lives. In hindsight, maybe I should have started my own thread on this subject.

[delilahcat]

I already live in fear - of people consumed with rage and hate, who I think are a danger to society.

[MargeB]

Yeah, death sentence, great idea.

"Don't rape children, kill people, plot crimes against humanity. Because human life is sacred'.

"But, emmmm, we can kill people. But life's still sacred'. I hate these 'Sarah Payne' arguments. The death penalty erodes respect for life, because the state elects to trample on it, even though there are other options."

[MargeB]

just gotta love Bangkok's response. Must remember that one for crucial situations.