ChatterBank0 min ago
Were the "little Englanders" right all along?
Will the hysterical pro Euro Brigade now show they are grateful we didn't join?
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Err let me think, rojash...
Among the politicians, Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson, Michael Heseltine, Charles Kennedy, Leon Brittan,
One of Mr Kennedy’s ramblings:
“What he [The Prime Minister] has got to do and what he and the chancellor have got to address is a clear timetable for this, because that in itself is very important and unless we get that right we are going to continue to suffer from an over-valued pound and the loss of manufacturing jobs."
In addition there were numerous businessmen and “men of vision” all raving on about the Pound being finished and the Euro being the only way forward. Easy enough to look them up.
At the same time there was plenty of wiser counsel advocating that the single currency would be completely unable to cope with the sort of scenario we are now witnessing. It was they who were dismissed as hysterical cranks.
Among the politicians, Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson, Michael Heseltine, Charles Kennedy, Leon Brittan,
One of Mr Kennedy’s ramblings:
“What he [The Prime Minister] has got to do and what he and the chancellor have got to address is a clear timetable for this, because that in itself is very important and unless we get that right we are going to continue to suffer from an over-valued pound and the loss of manufacturing jobs."
In addition there were numerous businessmen and “men of vision” all raving on about the Pound being finished and the Euro being the only way forward. Easy enough to look them up.
At the same time there was plenty of wiser counsel advocating that the single currency would be completely unable to cope with the sort of scenario we are now witnessing. It was they who were dismissed as hysterical cranks.
Not Brown and Blair, Gromit, just that nice Mr Brown.
Blair had made advanced plans to abolish Sterling. It was Mr Brown’s “economic tests” which saved the day. Unlike many other politicians, Mr Brown, for all his faults, considered the economic risks of joining the Euro and, to his eternal credit, made sure that so long as conditions were unsuitable the UK did not join in the lunacy.
Other nations were not so fortunate and their leaders rushed headlong into the abyss, dismissing all criticism and warnings because their political vanity overcame their common sense. The citizens of those countries are now paying the price for that pig-headedness.
Blair had made advanced plans to abolish Sterling. It was Mr Brown’s “economic tests” which saved the day. Unlike many other politicians, Mr Brown, for all his faults, considered the economic risks of joining the Euro and, to his eternal credit, made sure that so long as conditions were unsuitable the UK did not join in the lunacy.
Other nations were not so fortunate and their leaders rushed headlong into the abyss, dismissing all criticism and warnings because their political vanity overcame their common sense. The citizens of those countries are now paying the price for that pig-headedness.
I'm kind of wondering where all the people are who were predicting the collapse of Euro at the begining of the month?
Now there's a deal I don't suppose it will stop them they desperately want to talk the EU into the ground for their own short-sighted political agendas.
What's more it now seems as there will be much more tight enforcement of spending (which there was always meant to have been on the Euro).
The nay-sayers like to say that it was never going to work but that's not true. There was just too little enforcement from at the time.
Countries were meant to hit certain criteria to be allowed to join - many managed that for a few months got in the door and let their belts out and there was no enforcement.
That laxity caused the issues that are being dealt with now.
I'd like to think that if we had joined then we'd not have allowed that to happen but I'm not sure I believe it. Yes with someone like Gordon Brown involved there would have been a better chance but the UK has built up so much bad blood with the French and Germans it might have been hard.
There is however an issue now that tighter European controls are being enforced - as David Cameron has found out our influence within Europe is dwindling - I'm sure you think this is good but you're living in a fantasy land where Britain is still an important world power in it's own right.
Your National priide is blinding you to the financial reality that Britain relies more on inward investment than any other European country.
This next 12 months, when the Euro comes under control would be the ideal time for us to negotiate the best possible deal in joining - however that is politically impossible and so will be a missed opportunity.
If it weren't for the inevitability of Cameron losing the next election I'd be signing up for German lessons
Now there's a deal I don't suppose it will stop them they desperately want to talk the EU into the ground for their own short-sighted political agendas.
What's more it now seems as there will be much more tight enforcement of spending (which there was always meant to have been on the Euro).
The nay-sayers like to say that it was never going to work but that's not true. There was just too little enforcement from at the time.
Countries were meant to hit certain criteria to be allowed to join - many managed that for a few months got in the door and let their belts out and there was no enforcement.
That laxity caused the issues that are being dealt with now.
I'd like to think that if we had joined then we'd not have allowed that to happen but I'm not sure I believe it. Yes with someone like Gordon Brown involved there would have been a better chance but the UK has built up so much bad blood with the French and Germans it might have been hard.
There is however an issue now that tighter European controls are being enforced - as David Cameron has found out our influence within Europe is dwindling - I'm sure you think this is good but you're living in a fantasy land where Britain is still an important world power in it's own right.
Your National priide is blinding you to the financial reality that Britain relies more on inward investment than any other European country.
This next 12 months, when the Euro comes under control would be the ideal time for us to negotiate the best possible deal in joining - however that is politically impossible and so will be a missed opportunity.
If it weren't for the inevitability of Cameron losing the next election I'd be signing up for German lessons
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/
Labour 40% Cons 36% Lib Dem 9% UKIP 7%
Keep talking up the Euro issue guys the more you do the more it splits the Tories and pushes their voters into UKIP land
Labour 40% Cons 36% Lib Dem 9% UKIP 7%
Keep talking up the Euro issue guys the more you do the more it splits the Tories and pushes their voters into UKIP land
The basic problem is that the Eurozone is riddled socialism and hence out of control public sector spending. Take Greece for example, did you know that when someone retires on a public pension that pension can be passed as a legacy? Just one example of the sort of thing that has put them in the financial kasi! Impossible to change the attitude of a lot of these countries so when they are bailed out they'll return to form until next time.
Yes jake, a deal has indeed been done. The markets have rallied and everything in the garden is lovely.
Meanwhile, private investors in Greece lose half their cash (if they agree to do so), tax revenue in Greece continues to fall whilst State spending there continues to rise, the Greek state sector workers continue to retire at 57 on 80% pay, and nobody is quite sure where a major plank of the “deal” – the £1 trillion bailout fund – is actually going to come from when (not if) it is needed. Some deal.
You are quite right, the problem with the single currency lies with enforcement of its conditions. I would disagree that all the nations who joined properly met the entry criteria. Greece certainly did not, Ireland and Portugal almost certainly cooked their books before their entry and Italy may have been economical with the truth about their affairs. But enforcement will not be possible without full political union with Brussels having full powers over taxation and spending in all the member states and that is not going to happen.
This latest “deal” is simply more sticking plaster. We heard all this in May, we heard it again in July and, almost certainly, we will hear it again some time in the first quarter of the New Year (if not sooner) when the details of the latest deal prove inadequate or unacceptable. All any of these deals is doing is shifting vast sums of capital from the nations that have to the nations that have not and sooner or later the electorates of the donor nations will find a way to call a halt to the lunacy.
Nothing would please me more than for the UK to be part of a successful European trading bloc. The EU is not such an animal, it is an ideological pipe dream. The Euro in its current form cannot survive (something I believed from its birth, not just in the last week) and Eurocrats show no sign of taking the necessary steps towards making either of them work properly. Until they do, unpalatable and unacceptable as it may seem, the UK is better off outside both institutions.
It makes no difference who wins the next General Election in the UK. All the main parties have the same policy. Just what it will take to make at least one of them change their stance I really don’t know.
Meanwhile, private investors in Greece lose half their cash (if they agree to do so), tax revenue in Greece continues to fall whilst State spending there continues to rise, the Greek state sector workers continue to retire at 57 on 80% pay, and nobody is quite sure where a major plank of the “deal” – the £1 trillion bailout fund – is actually going to come from when (not if) it is needed. Some deal.
You are quite right, the problem with the single currency lies with enforcement of its conditions. I would disagree that all the nations who joined properly met the entry criteria. Greece certainly did not, Ireland and Portugal almost certainly cooked their books before their entry and Italy may have been economical with the truth about their affairs. But enforcement will not be possible without full political union with Brussels having full powers over taxation and spending in all the member states and that is not going to happen.
This latest “deal” is simply more sticking plaster. We heard all this in May, we heard it again in July and, almost certainly, we will hear it again some time in the first quarter of the New Year (if not sooner) when the details of the latest deal prove inadequate or unacceptable. All any of these deals is doing is shifting vast sums of capital from the nations that have to the nations that have not and sooner or later the electorates of the donor nations will find a way to call a halt to the lunacy.
Nothing would please me more than for the UK to be part of a successful European trading bloc. The EU is not such an animal, it is an ideological pipe dream. The Euro in its current form cannot survive (something I believed from its birth, not just in the last week) and Eurocrats show no sign of taking the necessary steps towards making either of them work properly. Until they do, unpalatable and unacceptable as it may seem, the UK is better off outside both institutions.
It makes no difference who wins the next General Election in the UK. All the main parties have the same policy. Just what it will take to make at least one of them change their stance I really don’t know.
" I would disagree that all the nations who joined properly met the entry criteria. Greece certainly did not,"
Absolutely. Greece should never have been allowed to join, but we all knew that at the time, so how come they were allowed to? Because at that time, Germany and France thought it was more important to pull on board any country that they felt could be exploited.
People keep banging on about money that was subsequently poured into Greece by the EU (prior to the big crash) but the vast majority of that money was returned to private French and German companies by way of trade. Not that dissimilar to the arrangement whereby (for example) the UK hands out millions in foreign aid, on condition that most of it gets spent with British companies supplying weapons, unnecessary engineering projects, etc.
Absolutely. Greece should never have been allowed to join, but we all knew that at the time, so how come they were allowed to? Because at that time, Germany and France thought it was more important to pull on board any country that they felt could be exploited.
People keep banging on about money that was subsequently poured into Greece by the EU (prior to the big crash) but the vast majority of that money was returned to private French and German companies by way of trade. Not that dissimilar to the arrangement whereby (for example) the UK hands out millions in foreign aid, on condition that most of it gets spent with British companies supplying weapons, unnecessary engineering projects, etc.
I’m not going to go into great details, rojash, and of course it depends on your definition of hysteria. But a quick look at Mr Kennedy’s diatribe about the reticence of the UK to embrace the Euro gives a flavour:
“...we are going to continue to suffer from an over-valued pound and the loss of manufacturing jobs."
We neither have suffered from an over-valued pound (because it has been devalued appropriately to suit our circumstances) nor, do I believe, have we suffered any greater loss of manufacturing jobs since 2002 (when Mr Kennedy held court) than had we joined the wretched Euro (though, of course, that cannot be proved either way). So I would describe Mr Kennedy’s doom-mongering, coming from a senior politician and party leader, as hysterical. And he was by no means alone.
“Because at that time, Germany and France thought it was more important to pull on board any country that they felt could be exploited.”
Precisely. Political vanity of European politicians, desperate to make their mark, overcame their common sense. Had Greece not joined the single currency (or better still, had it not been born at all) this crisis would have been nowhere near so severe. Greece (and the other peripheral nations) would not have built up huge debts in a currency they could not afford to use. They may well have become indebted, but their debts – whilst they may have hit the banks - would not have infected other sovereign states. The money poured into Greece has not found its way back to France or Germany or anywhere else in trade. It has been used mainly to support Greece’s current account payments for their huge public sector salary and pension bills. These are bills that the country simply could not afford to pay in a currency far too expensive for its feeble economy.
It’s schoolboy economics which, unfortunately the founding fathers of the Euro deliberately chose to ignore in order to pursue their ridiculous dream. Millions of people across Europe are now paying the price of that folly.
“...we are going to continue to suffer from an over-valued pound and the loss of manufacturing jobs."
We neither have suffered from an over-valued pound (because it has been devalued appropriately to suit our circumstances) nor, do I believe, have we suffered any greater loss of manufacturing jobs since 2002 (when Mr Kennedy held court) than had we joined the wretched Euro (though, of course, that cannot be proved either way). So I would describe Mr Kennedy’s doom-mongering, coming from a senior politician and party leader, as hysterical. And he was by no means alone.
“Because at that time, Germany and France thought it was more important to pull on board any country that they felt could be exploited.”
Precisely. Political vanity of European politicians, desperate to make their mark, overcame their common sense. Had Greece not joined the single currency (or better still, had it not been born at all) this crisis would have been nowhere near so severe. Greece (and the other peripheral nations) would not have built up huge debts in a currency they could not afford to use. They may well have become indebted, but their debts – whilst they may have hit the banks - would not have infected other sovereign states. The money poured into Greece has not found its way back to France or Germany or anywhere else in trade. It has been used mainly to support Greece’s current account payments for their huge public sector salary and pension bills. These are bills that the country simply could not afford to pay in a currency far too expensive for its feeble economy.
It’s schoolboy economics which, unfortunately the founding fathers of the Euro deliberately chose to ignore in order to pursue their ridiculous dream. Millions of people across Europe are now paying the price of that folly.
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