Greece bailout

[ludwig]

What on earth does the Greek PM think he's doing? To sit through all those negotiations, reach an agreement, and then spring this referendum on everyone out of the blue. Has he gone mad?

[rojash]

Hmm... a bit like all those people in the UK who think that years after joining the EU, having renegotiated terms of membership numerous times, they should now have a referendum to reconsider membership yet again.

[jno]

well, it's more than that, rojash - he apparently failed to mention this to any of the people who arranged a debt deal the other day. That seems a trifle impolite. But the outcome of the referendum seems unclear: most would vote against the deal - but even more would vote to stay in the eurozone. These aims may be incompatible.

[Andyvon]

Rojash -

We never joined the EU. We voted to join the Common Market or EEC. That morphed under our feet into the EC, then the EU. Very few people today would vote for Britain to be part of the EU - it's been a disaster.

I think Papandraeou (spelling?) is worried that the Greek people won't tolerate being beaten over the head for much longer. He doesn't want a repeat of what happened in 1967, nor what's happening on the other side of the Mediterranean. Asking the Greek people to vote on the measures would ease the pressure on the government.

[starone]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Why don't they just get on and do it before the whole thing falls apart.

[rojash]

I suspect that all this has been planned for a long time, with the connivance of France and Germany. If you look at the last round of measures taken by the Eurozone, they are about ensuring that the banks are in a position to withstand a default, and a ring-fencing of the Euro. From the Eurozone point of view, it doesn't seem to matter what promises they make or how much money they pump into Greece, or what measures Greece takes internally, the markets don't seem able to believe in the possibility of a Greek recovery. It may be that the Eurozone and Greece have decided that amputation is the only answer.

By going down the referendum route, Papandreou is able to shift the blame from himself and his government to the unions and the people.

[Gromit]

Well, the Greek people are the ones who will have to pay this vast amount of money back for all eternity, don't you think they should have a say? The Greek bailout is not on Greece's terms, it has been foisted on them by other nations who are not so much concerned with its effect on Greece, but more interested in the effect on their own countries if Greece defaults.

[emmie]

no, he has asked the people, which is more than happens here, and as others have said it will be the greeks paying through the nose, so why not.
Bet the German chancellor is hopping mad, good.

[Brenden]

Do you think Greece will be offered a more lucrative deal?

[jomifl]

The Greeks have been living high on the hog on loans from the EU. Their major income is tourism which will always suffer in times of world or european economic depression. When the Greek nation pastimes of book fiddling and tax avoidance are stopped then there might be some hope for them.If they leave the EU they are finished as a modern country.

[ichkeria]

The Greeks have only got themselves to blame for their problems. If you have a large section of society paying next to no tax then it's a miracle they've lasted this long.
Papandreou is not insane - just an incompetent politician playing the "populist" vote to try and stay in power, but he, unlike the Eurozone, is finished.

[Zeuhl]

<<If they leave the EU they are finished as a modern country. >>

Is it TOO selfish to say I preferred it pre-euro; less developed, more exotic and cheaper.

Bring back the Drachma!

[gollysailor]

And the Elgin Marbles

[jno]

Zeuhl, as I rememebr it from the old days it was friendly and cheap. I've been there once since the euro arrived and I not only found it more expensive, I was startled that everyone seemed to be trying to rip me off.

[Zeuhl]

jno

I've been there most years since the euro and seen progressive 'improvements' and with it increased commercialisation.

In short; yes the water is safer to drink, yes there is a nice road, yes the food shops look like home with lots of chiller cabinets, yes the hotel rooms have all mod cons ...

But I never really went to Greece for those things and boy do you pay for it.

[jno]

true. But I don't suppose you can blame people for preferring to buy food out of chiller cabinets.

For not paying their taxes, on the other hand...

I don't think this was Papandreou's fault; he inherited it and didn't find out what was going on until he checked the books (which the eurozone wallahs had omitted to do). In his position I wouldn't know what to do next either.

[Zeuhl]

No me neither

getting the Greek premiership is like what in rugby is known as a 'hospital pass'

[flip_flop]

I couldn't agree more Zeuhl.

I loved the 'old' Greece where Mrs Flop and I could go to a Taverna and have a slap-up meal and loads of the local plonk for the equivalent of a fiver - I last went on 2009 and we struggled to do the same for less than 40 euros each.

The fact that Greece was, shall we say, backward, was always part of the appeal.

The sanitised Greece I've experienced the last couple of times I've been has been a poor substitute.

[Zeuhl]

Amen to that

And I also have to say that the Greeks I have met there don't seem any happier - quite the reverse.

I know medical care etc is much improved but overall, perhaps they were better off without the 'mod cons' and without the stress.

[jno]

true, flip, we used to have souvlaki for dinner one night, moussaka the next, then back to souvlaki, both lukewarm; every restaurant in town served exactly the same. Loved it.

[elgreco]

Germany tried to tame Greece with the rifle and failed and now have tried with the Euro and failed. They would be better off letting Greece sought its own problems in their own way. Greece is a third world country with arab logic, i.e tomorrow will be better. Western european ways will not work there. They have been offerred money and took it. Who's the fool, the Greeks or the Germans?