ChatterBank2 mins ago
Oh dear has Guy Gibson's dog come back to haunt us?
105 Answers
http://www.dailymail....or-WWII-memorial.html
The Mail was careful to state:
/// They are convinced that the wraiths of both Wing Commander Guy Gibson and his chocolate–coloured Labrador haunt the remote airfield from which the audacious raid was launched. ///
His 'chocolate-coloured' Labrador????? It was Black.
But later they threw all caution to the wind and went on to report:
/// Gibson's Labrador, ***, was the mascot for the squadron that launched an audacious night-time raid on three heavily defended dams deep in Germany's industrial heartland using bouncing bombs ///
/// The Labrador's name was used as a code word whenever one of Germany's Ruhr Dams was breached during the mission.///
Oh dear should they have stated that fact?
But apparently in the remake of the film the dog is to be re-named 'Digger'
Must admit I didn't know it was Australian though.
The Mail was careful to state:
/// They are convinced that the wraiths of both Wing Commander Guy Gibson and his chocolate–coloured Labrador haunt the remote airfield from which the audacious raid was launched. ///
His 'chocolate-coloured' Labrador????? It was Black.
But later they threw all caution to the wind and went on to report:
/// Gibson's Labrador, ***, was the mascot for the squadron that launched an audacious night-time raid on three heavily defended dams deep in Germany's industrial heartland using bouncing bombs ///
/// The Labrador's name was used as a code word whenever one of Germany's Ruhr Dams was breached during the mission.///
Oh dear should they have stated that fact?
But apparently in the remake of the film the dog is to be re-named 'Digger'
Must admit I didn't know it was Australian though.
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JTH say's it was just a dog, and has no bearings on the historical facts.
But I am afraid it did the dog 'N***er was not only Guy Gibson's dog, but was also the mascot of 617 squardron, and it's name was used for the codename used to confirm the breach of the Möhne Dam.
N***er was run down and killed outside the gates of RAF Scampton, on the night before the 'Dams raid' but it's death was kept a secret so as not to impede on the thoughts of the bomber crews, while on their mission, so therefore it does have an affect on the historical facts of the mission.
Also taking into account that it has not been changed in any other historical references, therefore in my opinion it should have not been changed, just to suit the feeling of some audiences of a modern film.
This is the thin end of the wedge, and if the feelings of some have an effect on film content, who know where it can lead, after all do we not have already have film guidance warnings, such as 'some scenes could cause offence'?
Incidentally once there was a brown Cherry Blossom boot polish called ''N***er Brown boot polish.
On items such as these, of course it would be inappropriate to use such names these days, these are just products and name changes oftern take place, but Guy Gibson's dog was an historical figure and therefore should not fade into obscurity.
But I am afraid it did the dog 'N***er was not only Guy Gibson's dog, but was also the mascot of 617 squardron, and it's name was used for the codename used to confirm the breach of the Möhne Dam.
N***er was run down and killed outside the gates of RAF Scampton, on the night before the 'Dams raid' but it's death was kept a secret so as not to impede on the thoughts of the bomber crews, while on their mission, so therefore it does have an affect on the historical facts of the mission.
Also taking into account that it has not been changed in any other historical references, therefore in my opinion it should have not been changed, just to suit the feeling of some audiences of a modern film.
This is the thin end of the wedge, and if the feelings of some have an effect on film content, who know where it can lead, after all do we not have already have film guidance warnings, such as 'some scenes could cause offence'?
Incidentally once there was a brown Cherry Blossom boot polish called ''N***er Brown boot polish.
On items such as these, of course it would be inappropriate to use such names these days, these are just products and name changes oftern take place, but Guy Gibson's dog was an historical figure and therefore should not fade into obscurity.
AOG......I agree entirely.....on that May night in 1943, 19 Lancasters of 617 squadron and their brave crew set out from that Lincolnshire air field at a time when the moral of the British people was an all time low.
I just wonder how the aircrew would have reacted to the concerns of the name of Guy Gibson's dog who was called N.I.G.G.E.R, a historical fact that cannot be obliterated by time.
I just wonder how the aircrew would have reacted to the concerns of the name of Guy Gibson's dog who was called N.I.G.G.E.R, a historical fact that cannot be obliterated by time.
-- answer removed --
People should not be learning their history from movies. That seems pretty self-evident to me...
I don't know how many of you are fans of Westerns, but I remember the concluding lines of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance which I think has some bearing: "This is the West. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. "
Films are a modern way of 'printing the legend'. The Dambusters Raid is a part of our national mythology/culture - which is seldom concerned with total 100% accuracy. Any bad decisions Churchill might have made, for instance, are facts - but they're unimportant to the image of him which is so important to British culture. (Which isn't meant to be critical or anything - it's just an observation).
Now, considering this particular film, what matters is immersion. What matters is people buying into the subject matter the way that they want to - which in brutal honesty is quite understandably in a fairly sanitized and idealised way. If people expect to learn history from watching films then that is a failure either on their part or on our part for failing to educate them otherwise depending on your stance
I don't know how many of you are fans of Westerns, but I remember the concluding lines of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance which I think has some bearing: "This is the West. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. "
Films are a modern way of 'printing the legend'. The Dambusters Raid is a part of our national mythology/culture - which is seldom concerned with total 100% accuracy. Any bad decisions Churchill might have made, for instance, are facts - but they're unimportant to the image of him which is so important to British culture. (Which isn't meant to be critical or anything - it's just an observation).
Now, considering this particular film, what matters is immersion. What matters is people buying into the subject matter the way that they want to - which in brutal honesty is quite understandably in a fairly sanitized and idealised way. If people expect to learn history from watching films then that is a failure either on their part or on our part for failing to educate them otherwise depending on your stance
They closed the roads off around the lakes to all vehicles whilst they filed the iconic footage of the Lancasters sweeping over the camera and off over the water.
My Grandad had passed into the area before the closure but stopped to take 40 winks in the cab of his lorry.
Suitably refreshed he set off a little while later.....and was quite surprised to see a Lancaster bomber appear from somewhere off to his right. He slowed to a stop and watched as she flew majestically over the lake.
Then he noticed a few men hopping up and down and shaking their fists at him.....and the cameras. :o)
I wonder if the footage survives, somewhere.
My Grandad had passed into the area before the closure but stopped to take 40 winks in the cab of his lorry.
Suitably refreshed he set off a little while later.....and was quite surprised to see a Lancaster bomber appear from somewhere off to his right. He slowed to a stop and watched as she flew majestically over the lake.
Then he noticed a few men hopping up and down and shaking their fists at him.....and the cameras. :o)
I wonder if the footage survives, somewhere.
aog think it was this one ,
where eagles dare
>> The Luftwaffe did not fly American-made Bell helicopters during World War II. Yet, we see one landing in the castle square. The helicopter shown was in fact, a Bell model 47G, built in Hurst (Fort Worth) Texas and wasn't even introduced until 1953. It can be recognized by the full bubble canopy, exposed welded-tube tail boom, saddle fuel tanks, and skid landing gear. The Luftwaffe never even saw or touched one, let alone had them in their fleet. The US Army had some operational Sikorsky R-4 helicopters late in the war, but except for a few prototypes in test mode, Germany had none. <<
for someone with a bad memory not done bad remembering this all these years
where eagles dare
>> The Luftwaffe did not fly American-made Bell helicopters during World War II. Yet, we see one landing in the castle square. The helicopter shown was in fact, a Bell model 47G, built in Hurst (Fort Worth) Texas and wasn't even introduced until 1953. It can be recognized by the full bubble canopy, exposed welded-tube tail boom, saddle fuel tanks, and skid landing gear. The Luftwaffe never even saw or touched one, let alone had them in their fleet. The US Army had some operational Sikorsky R-4 helicopters late in the war, but except for a few prototypes in test mode, Germany had none. <<
for someone with a bad memory not done bad remembering this all these years
"after all do we not have already have film guidance warnings, such as 'some scenes could cause offence'? "
A fair point, but I imagine the makers were trying to avoid having to do this. The original Dambusters is a family film of sorts - it's meant to be enjoyed by everyone. But the casual racism of the time (which you're right to observe is a historical fact) is nowadays seen as something uncomfortable and unsavoury - something for kids to learn about another time in the right kind of way.
A fair point, but I imagine the makers were trying to avoid having to do this. The original Dambusters is a family film of sorts - it's meant to be enjoyed by everyone. But the casual racism of the time (which you're right to observe is a historical fact) is nowadays seen as something uncomfortable and unsavoury - something for kids to learn about another time in the right kind of way.
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