Town Hall prayers tradition, breaches his human right to freedom of belief.

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail....own-hall-prayers.html

Surely if former councillor Clive Bone, was ‘disadvantaged and embarrassed’ when Christian prayers were said in the council chamber, he could have removed himself until prayers were over.

This case has reached the High Court at the culmination of a three-year campaign, I wonder who's paying the legal fees?

[boxtops]

In that case, I can't see what the fuss is, either.

[Brenden]

Bloody mindedness

[anotheoldgit]

boxtops

/// what happens, then, in Parliament, when MPs pray to open the House? Do people like Keith Vaz and Baroness Uddin excuse themselves for that part, ///

No I suppose they hypocritically join in with pomp and ceremony of it all, just as those other invited guests do at Royal Weddings etc, that take place in Westminster Abbey or St Paul's.

Incidentally those friend of yours who just say a suitable prayer of there own, when the Lord's Prayer comes up?

Well at all the church weddings that I have been to, including my own, we also sang hymns, how do your friends get round them , do they stand or do they remain seated?

You also didn't say what religion they followed, if they are Muslim do they bring their own pray mats?

[Mosaic]

How times have changed. In the scouts they used to announce 'Catholics and Jews fall out' so the anglican prayers wouldn't have to be done while they were on parade.
Who would have thought that in the 21st century, the issue in the OP would matter at all?

[modeller]

It is not easy to drop out of reigious ceremonies. We stay because it is expected. 98% of funerals and church weddings are accompanied by a religious ceremony but in the UK less than 50% of the population believe in God. The same thing applies to council meetings and parliament .
I remember when church parades were compulsory in the army but when they made them optional they didn't get enough to make a quorum. So the army tried other tricks like saying ' for those not attending church there will be a kit inspection. ' Another stunt in garrision towns was for religious groups to tour around town and offer free tea and cakes to anyone willing to sing hymns and listen to some bible bashing . Of course they didn't tell you that untill they had you in their hall and the doors were closed . What a farce just to keep the theists happy.

[anotheoldgit]

modeller

/// but in the UK less than 50% of the population believe in
God. ///

I would be interested where you got that figure from? Also there are more religions in this country that believe in God, apart from Christians.

This was from one of my posted threads.

/// But another Tory MP, Peter Bone, challenged this claim, saying a recent poll showed “75 per cent of British people thought that they were Christians”. ///

Regarding your reference to stunts by religious groups, offering tea and cakes to service personnel.

This is different to what I experienced in the RAF, the Salvation Army, provided us which better games facilities, better tea etc than could be got from the usual service leisure organisations, and with no mention of religious indoctrination.

[modeller]

AOG If you go into Google you will find hundreds of statistics no doubt many of them with their own axe to grind ., but on the simple question of 'Do you believe in God . The answer for the UK ranged from 30 to 70% . Also people are reluctant to say No they don't. On the more pertinent question ' Do you attend a place of worship the answer for the UK was 20% 95%) which included all faiths .C of E was 8% RCs was 12%. Compare our 20% with the US who claim to believe 95%. Questions on religion are invariably loaded . This site is interesting as it puts the questions in various ways but the UK is always way down the list. http://www.democratic...l&address=104x1166392

With regards to religious groups is the Salvation Army the only one you can come up with ? I'm a great fan of them and I have reason to be grateful to them in various parts of the world for their non religious work and I still support them whenever I can , but what I said concerning having to sing hymns for my supper for other theist groups was quite common.

W

[New Judge]

What a ridiculous load of nonsense.

It is indicative of how the UK has lost its way. Yes, times do change and saying prayers at the start of council business can certainly be viewed as a relic from a bygone age and not to everybody’s taste. However, the majority of the council members wish to retain the tradition and adequate provision has been made for those not wishing to partake. So just what harm is this doing to anybody?

Former councillor Bone claims the tradition breaches his human right to freedom of belief. How so? Nobody is preventing him from believing (or disbelieving as seems more appropriate to him) in anything he wants. Prayers are certainly not my cup of tea, especially in a somewhat inappropriate setting as a council meeting. But those attending have voted by a majority to hold them. If I was a member of the council I would simply excuse myself until the ritual had been completed. But no. Mr Bone said he was ‘disadvantaged and embarrassed’ when Christian prayers were said in the council chamber. Oh Dear. How Sad. Perhaps somebody who is so sensitive would be better off not involved in the cut and thrust of local politics.

I know the town of Bideford very well and would suggest its Town Council has far more important matters to occupy its time and to consume their no doubt scarce resources.

[modeller]

aog # // But another Tory MP, Peter Bone, challenged this claim, saying a recent poll showed “75 per cent of British people thought that they were Christians”. ///

I don't know which claim he was referring to but I believe he is right because we live in a Christian society based on Christian values so most people would say they 'thought ' they were Christians . I would have thought it was higher , we are afterall immersed in it from birth . However Christian values are not the same as believing in a God or all that mumbo jumbo in the OT.. Muslim, Buddhist , Hindu, and in fact many Pagan values .are also similar to Christian values. we can all have a belief in 'Goodness ' without believing in fantasy.
I had a friend who always said he didn't believe in God but he did believe in Good.

[jomifl]

I would have thought that our overworked councillors had better things to do with their time.

[Pee-Wee]

Sorry .. Thought we were a Christian Country.

[boxtops]

AOG - yes, my friends are Muslim, and no, they don't take their prayer mats. Prayer mats are only required for the formal prayers they make (and then only if there is no suitable floor covering) - out of courtesy they stand when the congregation does, they just don't sing. I know a fair few other friends and family who don't sing - and don't either "hypocritically" join in with the prayers, because they don't believe, but they wouldn't not attend family and social events just because they disagree with the religious ceremony.

[boxtops]

Nice post, modeller

[Kromovaracun]

I don't really see what's 'hypocritical' about tokenistically joining in with prayers as a non-believer. To me, they're just words and if I'm at a place where prayers are said (which in my case is usually events like funerals or weddings or whatever), I'd feel a bit inappropriate making some kind of declaration of my nonbelief as there's no reason anyone nearby should be interested. I sometimes visit churches because I enjoy the aesthetics - is that 'hypocritical' too?

[modeller]

Funerals are more for the bereaved than the deceased. If my presence gives them comfort and solace , whatever their motives , then I am happy to go along with any of their rituals .
I recently went to my friend's ,an atheist, funeral but whose daughters were very religious and they laid on an over the top long commemoration service. He would have hated it but he knew that is what they would have wanted , as we all did and we dutifully played our part .

[New Judge]

Well done modeller. It's nice to hear of someone setting aside their own requirements to go along with those of others,especially at such a sensitive time.