Prison - is this the best we can do ?

[Squitty]

There is another prison overcrowding crisis looming but is imprisonment the best form of punishment for the crime in this 'modern' world?
I agree there are different levels of crime but our prison capacity is only about 85000 and we are must already let a lot of guilty ones off prison because of the lack of space.
You could argue that imprisonment itself is against human rights.
What do you think an appropriate punishment might be as an alternative?

[emmie]

build more prisons, or go back to prison ships. There are thousands of types of crimes, but i wouldn't put drug addicts in prison, it's pointless, as they can get their fix there. More treatment centres, ones where the individual has counselling, but is also told if you don't stop the drug taking you will go back to prison, no second, third chances.
Murder in the first degree you get life no parole, rapists same,

[emmie]

if you don't commit a crime, you won't go to prison, presumably the rioters back in august thought they had got away with looting scot free, not so, as many were habitual criminals and are back where they belong in jail.

[Squitty]

Kind of with you em10 but we are not going to build any more prisons are we?
I also agree prison isnt suitable for some 'crime' - drugs is a tricky one and financial crimes (non payment of council tax).
What i was interested in is.. if not prison then what? people should still have a consquence but not necessarily prison.

[emmie]

people who don't pay their council tax shouldn't be in prison, like the debtors prisons of old, it's pointless because if you are in prison how are you going to repay the debt, answer you can't, so you could languish in jail for a long time. If the person is allowed an order where they can pay a sum each week/month to pay off the debt then they are not clogging up the jails, if they are not working, then presumably they get some sort of benefit, perhaps an amount could be deducted. In extreme cases of elderly falling behind with payments best to write it off.

[Squitty]

// if not prison then what? people should still have a consquence but not necessarily prison. //

If there were no consequences then nobody would pay the council tax anyway so there must be something in place. The threat of prison to a habitual car thief probably doesnt mean much either after 30 or so slapped wrists. It would be nice to have some way of preventing the other 29 crimes though.

[emmie]

i suspect that many pay their council tax, though unwillingly, to me it's a gigantic rip off, the threat of prison does deter some im sure, if you are a habitual non payer then they may be the only answer. I don't believe rapists are deterred by the threat of prison, or being convicted for rape, as so often they come out and do it again. That is only my viewpoint, but you often hear of cases like the Lotto Rapist, and quite honestly why he wasn't incarcerated for life i shall never know.
Can't give you any answers, perhaps some others might like to add their viewpoint,

[NOX]

For violent crimes where the attack is random, murder and rape then clearly for the safety of the public people need to be incarcerated. There is no rehabilitaiton in prison despite the popular perception and relatively 'innocent' criminals guilty only of errors of judgement end up in jail and then leave with their decency totally destroyed, so in most cases I would vehemently say it's a very bad idea. Certainly there need to be sanctions so that society doesn't fall apart and my view is an overhauling of the community service system would be the best way forward as at the moment it's a pointless joke, and need to be structured so that both socirty and the offender benefits, so that the rehabilitaiton aspect prevents further offences.

[VHG]

I think the removal of a person's passport for a period of time would be a good punishment.

Holidays abroad are a perk to many people, and if a persons passport was taken away from them for say 2 or 3 years (as well as other punishment like prison or fine depending on crime) then it would punish them without costing the country any money on keeping them in prison.

I dont mean for major crimes, but for more minor crimes, or repeat offenders, a period without their passport might make them think twice next time.

[Squitty]

yes NOX there will always need to be a prison for separating dangerous criminals away from the general public and we have a prison structure between high security prisons and 'open' prisons. To me the prison has become a direct punishment as opposed to an opportunity for rehabilitation (which doesnt seem to work in many cases).
I would also support 3 & out policy they have in the US - if you keep doing it then there needs to be firmer punishment.
So how do you think we should deal with council tax non payers? The imprisonment is sometimes for non payment of fines as opposed to non payment of council tax. Is contempt of court that serious?

[Squitty]

Interesting VHG - I am assuming if somebody is 'tagged' - it would have the same effect.
Does tagging work? my impression is that it is a curfew tool for youngsters - or is this my misunderstanding.
Would you tag a council tax defaulter?

[youngmafbog]

Build more prisons, but sparse and functional. No tv, no playstation easy to search for contraband. Hard labour whilst in there.

If we cant afford the prisons then outsource to Thailand or Turkey, anywhere that knows how to run a prison.

Instead of Parole when that time comes round the criminal can apply for a position in a lightweight prison where they will be treated better and be given training for a qualification. If they fail the qualification they stay until they have got one or end of sentence whichever sooner. If they misbehave then they go back to hard labour. Introduce 3 strikes and out. Show we mean business.

Remove this petty get out for good behaviour, add more time on for mis-behaviour

In my mind you give up your human rights once you have violated someone else’s. Doesn’t mean you have to be tortured or anything but neither do you have to be pampered.

IF YOU CANT DO THE TIME DON’T DO THE CRIME. Simple

[Squitty]

theres nothing wrong with your point youngmafbog but it isnt goijng to happen is it?
We are not going to build more prisons and the habitual offender isnt going to stop offending.
It is too cushy to be in prison and the stigma isnt there for certain people any more.
for all these reasons I was looing for a viable alternative that is appropriate to the offence but doesnt involve people going to prison or being let off because ultimately they are the only punishment options society has.

[d9f1c7]

The outsourcing idea is good, we should look into it. The basic problem is that we don't actually have any prisons, well none that deter a repeat visit anyway.

If we donlt have the stomach to deal with the problem I guess we need to build some more. We should not adjust sentencing just because we don't have the room.

It's a paradox but the best way to have less in jail is so send more to jail (proper jail)

[Squitty]

Agreed d9 - we shouldn't just alter the sentence because there's no room. I think thats why the subject bothers me. There are people getting away with being punished and that reinforces the lack of a deterrent through prisons or any other method. The end result is more petty crime.
I can just see it getting worse over the next few years as the economic situation bites.