Christians complain of being marginalised - is it an example of why they should be?

[sp1814]

This happened in the US, but increasingly in the UK, we're seeing a similar move towards the right, whereas as a nation we are deserting the church (look at falling numbers actually worshipping on Sundays) and politically, we're moving towards the centre (as evidenced by the failure of any extreme left or extreme right party during the last two elections).

http://www.dailymail....n-rescinded--gay.html

Why do Christians keep shooting themselves in the foot in this way? It's just so unnecessary...

[NOX]

So does it sit well with you Em (and anyone else for that matter) that the Haredi now figire to be about 20% of all the Jews in the UK? They are some of the most extreme people that I have ever had the misfortune to have to deal with closely, detest equal rights for women, won't even allow women to be photographed, force marriages and generally behave in the very worst of ways refusing to acknowledge other Jewish groups as legitimate or brook any contradiction whatsoever about their outdated beliefs. As I said before ANY religious fundamentlist is a pain in the rear be they Jewish, Christian, Muslim or anything else for that matter.

[naomi24]

SP, //This thread has somehow become about Muslims, and I'll be damned if I can tell how that happened.//

I think it might have been when you said this …

//I'm talking about Christians in general - same way that other posters will refer to Muslims generically, whether they're from Bradford or Istanbul.//

//I think you're saying that Islam, like Judiasm or the Mormon religious is based on text which is less open to interpretation that Christianity, which has splintered into thousands of different sects.//

Pretty much – although Islamic literature is, like all the rest, contradictory and open to interpretation. Therefore, whilst the basic message remains the same, some Muslims choose to follow the more unsavoury aspects, and others do not - and the same applies to Jews with the bible.

Nox, //but she's very wrong if she thinks that there are no polar opposites within either religion//

You’re putting words into my mouth. I didn’t say that. See above.

[sp1814]

em10

I don't think that everyone has the full picture. I work for an international company, and the Muslims I meet are generally professionals, with wives who have their own careers. Their faith has zero impact on them as professionals...I suppose if I worked in a mini cab office in Bradford, my outlook would be totall...

Hang on - its happened again! We've gone Muslim-centric on a thread that was supposed to be about the marginalization of Christianity.

<slaps forehead>.

[naomi24]

SP, //I work for an international company, and the Muslims I meet are generally professionals, with wives who have their own careers. Their faith has zero impact on them as professionals...//

You're talking about a different breed altogether. One of my best friends is a highly educated, professional Muslim lady, married to an English university lecturer - and her mindset bears no comparison whatsoever to some of the others I encounter. Similarly with our friend who is a brilliant engineer.

Right. I'm with Em. Enough for now. I have a glass of sherry, the fire in the sitting room is blazing, my husband is preparing my supper - and I'm going to put my feet up and get ready to watch Terminator number 103 - or something like that! Thanks for the chat. Bye for now. :o)

[sp1814]

naomi24

Enjoy Terminator and you have my heartfelt congratulations on training your husband on preparing supper.

You rule.

[sandyRoe]

Wasn't there supposed to be a rather moreish wine produced in the Beqaa Valley in Lebanon?
There'd need to be some wind drinking Muslims to ensure they weren't producing vinegar.

[ABerrant]

A rather Moorish wine perhaps?

[sandyRoe]

wine drinking, rather than wind drinking

[FredPuli43]

The right in America have the religious element; an element which Republican candidates are enthusiastic to court because it's so important. That seems not to be dead quite yet, but views on abortion, homosexuality and contraception which some have are clearly not as accepted as they once were.

Americans are still far more church-going than we are. Every politician mentions, somehere in their literature, not just which religion they belong to, but which sect, and often which place of worship too. Here, mentioning God is a political taboo ( "We don't do God" as Tony Blair said)

Jews are in established groups or sects; Orthodox, Liberal, Reform; just as Christians are , some are ultra-Orthodox too. There are some Jews who have bacon for breakfast, but they still regard themselves as Jews and Jewish.

All major religions shoot themselves in the foot sometimes. Not everyone is mainstream or in touch with the wider community, but it would be shame if the world took them as representative of the whole religion. Some Jews,I recall, quite seriously wanted to build a high fence around some streets in North London, because of some instructions in the Old Testament about surrounding a settlement. You can imagine how that was regarded by the wider world.

[NOX]

Not going to split hairs with Naomi about what she did or didn't say or mean, but she's done it again and spoke about professional Muslims thus:
'You're talking about a different breed altogether. One of my best friends is a highly educated, professional Muslim lady, married to an English university lecturer - and her mindset bears no comparison whatsoever to some of the others I encounter. Similarly with our friend who is a brilliant engineer.'
- well no more so than any other religious group within their own structure to be honest- which was my ( and I think Sp's ) point.
I too remember all the fuss with some of the Ultra Orthadox Jewish community- my Jewish wife was tearing her hair out about it casting a bad light on Judaism as a whole- I suspect many liberal Christians and Muslims think the same way about their own extremists.

[emmie]

these are people i see around me everyday of the week. The men mostly wear western dress. The Hasidic community do not mix, mostly seem to inhabit certain areas of the capital, and no i don't care for that attitude either. Anything that promotes inequality, and women's subjugation tends to make me get teed off. I comment on what i know, and see around me.

[emmie]

I have yet to come across a truly liberal Muslim, either those i have worked with or in other situations.

[naomi24]

Nox, // Not going to split hairs with Naomi about what she did or didn't say or mean//

I’ll tell you what I mean. SP was talking specifically about the professional Muslims he knows whose faith does not appear to affect their professional lives, and therefore I addressed that. I would say the same if he were talking about someone like, say, Cliff Richard, for example, a devout and apparently fairly intelligent and sensible Christian, compared to the moronic members of the Westboro Baptist Church who advocate the murder of gays. They are also a different breed - and you, I believe, are deliberately splitting hairs.

Got to go. Supper’s ready.

[NOX]

No not splitting hairs at all, still if you choose to see it that way that's your problem, I was simply indicating how your post came across and reiterating what I meant, that liberals of all persuasons are not simply liberal professionally but across the whole spectrum of their lives and that includes Muslims whether you or anoyone else likes it or not. I fail to see why every post some posters are involved in has to become or be turned around to become a Muslim bashing thread to suit their own agendas- it's happened here again and will be dressed up as somthing along the lines of 'the natural evolution of the thread' but really it's not it's just another Muslim bashing thread and it ill befits the intelligence of some of the posters that they persistantly do that because appalling though the perspective of hard line Muslim clerics is, they simply don't represent the feelings of the majority of perfectly normal Muslims who would not dream of stoning anyone to death because they realise that behaviour like that went out with the ark. Rabid rantings from Muslims, Christians or Atheists is a disgusting way of behaving- no-one has any of the answers for sure all we can do is behave like nice people do you not think according to a human code where we seek peace and respect for our fellow man and I don't see that in any of the groups I've just mentioned.If we did that then no-one woudl be marginalised.

[mushroom25]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17883093
the catholic church takes aim at its shoes again.......

[naomi24]

Nox, I said most of that - but perhaps you failed to notice because you were too busy putting words into my mouth, and assuming you know what I think. There are two ends to every spectrum – and that’s exactly what I’ve said. Unlike some, I don’t see the world through rose-coloured spectacles, and I don’t deny the truth. I’ve simply told it as it is. The problem is the moment anyone mentions ‘Muslims’ around here, some people immediately go on the defensive, and often with no good reason. I get slated for saying Muslim bombers are terrorists – which they are - and I get slated for saying that my Muslim friends are educated and refined people – which they are. If anyone has a problem, I suggest you look to yourself. Don’t be so aggressive.

And incidentally, I haven’t turned this into a Muslim bashing thread. The analogy between Christians and Muslims was first mentioned by SP.

[NOX]

I'm the aggressive one Naomi? Really? Have a look in the mirror, you HAVE to have the last word on any topic of religion, tell people what they think and mean and how you see the world and that you are 100% right, and you DO turn anything you possibly can into a Muslim bashing thread wreaking havoc with most of the (very good) arguments you have against hardline religious factions with your own hard line Atheism which is equally repugnant.
Your unyielding dogma puts me off posting in a section which I previously enjoyed posting in for many years as your stance is agressive and disrespectful to other users opinions and not what good debate should be about. I reckon you and Keyplus were seperated at birth.
No-one has to put words into your mouth Naomi, you say quite enough for the rest of us as it is.

[naomi24]

Nox, See what I mean? Aggressive.

And incidentally, you put words into my mouth on this very thread - and I asked you not to.

[NOX]

I fail to see I am any more aggressive than you are Naomi, and I won't bother persisting in conversing with you on this matter so you can safely have the last word next time you post and get that little warm glow you must get about thinking you're always right. Have a nice day and try to chill out a bit for God's sake.

[anotheoldgit]

Glad I have kept out of this one until now.

I only popped in to say that it is good to see there are others who have also noticed the aggressiveness of some posters.

But strangely unlike myself, they have not been unjustly blamed for being mardy and chucking their dummy out of their pram when they have also pointed the aggressiveness out.