Chester Crown Court - The Shafilea Ahmed Murder.

[DTCwordfan]

What a tragedy of cross-cultural values in that a 17 year old wanting boyfriends and her Pakistani-heritage parents wanting her to marry. Then her father takes action and is accused, along with her mother, of murdering their daughter and dumping the body in Cumbria.

Alisha, her sister, blew the gaffe on them......

Any views on how to avert this and integrate Muslim values into our cultural heritage and minimise the risk of this happening again?

[sp1814]

What have punishments for murder got to do with integrating 'Muslim values into our cultural heritage'.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Q. How do we ensure Muslims are fully integrated into British society?

A. By giving the strongest sentences if they a convicted of familial murder.

Am I the only person who sees the disjunct above?

[sp1814]

Let me clarify - what I mean is practically no Muslims use murder as a way of dealing with familial disputes.

Using extreme cases like this is like judging all British parents by the values of Karen Matthews.

Not fair, surely?

[emmie]

How do you propose to change centuries old entrenched views overnight.
Arranged marriages should be outlawed, honour killings dealt with by life sentences, no parole. And quite honestly it's time that those who have come to Britain play their part in seeing that these types of crimes don't keep on occurring. In much the same way that these Pakistani men who used and abused those young white girls. Their views seem to be as entrenched, that they are trash, so why should they care. Jail for life, no parole. Perhaps the message would get through that it will not be tolerated. And the same can be said for all wife beaters, and murderers of innocent children.

[emmie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16014368

[sp1814]

Are we saying these crimes go unpunished?

We're the Rochdale abusers found guilty, and then given on-custodial sentences?

[sp1814]

Can someone bring me up to speed - in the case of 'honour' killings, are Muslim men given a slap on the wrist?

[237SJ]

<<Arranged marriages should be outlawed>> Why? Some arranged marriages turn out to be very successful. Not all cultures marry for love.

[DTCwordfan]

not sure on the logic of that,237 - love is expected to grow surely - but then the Chinese society has the matriarchs that look after familial affairs and family investments and pensions, and "little things" are permitted and vetted by these "Dames" - is this acceptable? Can we learn? By the way French society ain't much different to that model.....

[sp1814]

Actually - in British society, 'marriage for love' is a surprisingly modern invention.

Up until the late 19th century, there was a tradition towards marriage as a means of social adhesion (a number of wedding traditions are still based on ancient rites of the bride as 'chattel').

I think there's great value in arranged marriages - they seem to work surprisingly well.

[pdq1]

Goes to show what we all knew from the start. Many of the immigrants do not follow our way of life but are still governed by what happens in their native country and the way they were brought up.

If they want to integrate they should learn and follow British customs. Camerons latest wheeze to educate the parents should also include this.

[237SJ]

Agreed sp. I remember watching "Who do you think you are" when Nadia Sawalha featured. Her father (Jordanian) was explainging to her how he had an arranged marriage with her mother and how successful it had been. She had trouble getting her head around that (as anyone who has been brought up in the West would). That system isn`t hugely different to the system in England many years ago. Peoples` expectations of marriage were completely different.

[DTCwordfan]

so it distils down to education (though not just at the point of entry).

[joko]

i cannot understand the huge discrepancy in these cases with the perceived meanings of the word 'honour' ...
why and how can anyone in their right mind, view child murder as the lesser of two evils, against a teenager dating a boy...?
how do they consider murder an honourable act, and teen dating so utterly disgraceful that the 'guilty' cannot be allowed to live?

i cannot even fathom the logic here. at all. i usually try my best to at least try to understand the addled and twisted logic in these sorts of circumstances - but here, i am totally stuck.

i mean, do other families who know whats happened, look at the family in disgust and shame because of their teen dating a boy - yet think "what nice great people they are, now that they've murdered their child, their social standing is up again"...?


i also cannot understand those people in this world, who support or dismiss these sorts of things by saying 'oh well its traditional, we shouldnt interfere in other cultures, its their way'

there are some things that are above any tradition or culture - and murder is never ever acceptable.

good on the daughter for speaking out - i hope more kids see this story and have the courage to do the same.
i wonder how many kids just think its normal and 'right' though?

[joko]

regarding the arranged marriage thing - i do understand how, if you are brought up to view marriage as just a union of families for convenience, procreation, companionship etc etc, then you will not have such a problem with arranged marriage - you will accept the situation and trust your parent to make a good choice for you.

but in this country people believe marriage is first and foremost about love...we expect to fall for someone, have an exciting whirlwind - and would quite rightly feel cheated if that chance was taken away from us.
so it will never be acceptable here in that sense...
the very idea of being shackled to possibly a stranger and someone you dont even know, let alone care for or love, is utterly abhorrent.

wrong too, for us in the western world, is the notion that your parents will make such major decisions in life for you, and basically control your life.
in this country we generally begin to rebel as children and cant wait to make our own way in the world...
i used to get furious when my dad would try to try to organise my life for me as a teen.... he didnt seem to understand that it wasnt his life to run...

[askyourgran]

They are indifferent to our culture DT and our laws. Such blind arrogance, again women are of no account. If they bring shame on their family that is it! I hope they hang the b^***%d.

[sandyRoe]

The 'honour' that's offended may be that of the extended family or clan. If you allow your daughter to refuse to marry her cousin at your behest what can you really think of your kinsmen?

[emmie]

and many do not, if you are being forced into a marriage you don't want then surely that isn't right.
Some of these men may get a long jail term, but how many more are not caught. Then there are those who abuse their wives, and get away with it.
because the women will not report the matter to the police, authorities for fear of reprisals or worse. But those in their communities know it goes on.
Integration is a fine word, but tell me where it happens, then i will say we have a cohesive society.

[sith123]

//Why? Some arranged marriages turn out to be very successful. Not all cultures marry for love//

agreed.

[emmie]

Sith
By and large people are happy to find their own partners here, and if the person doesn't want to be fobbed off to a first or third cousin, then that should be respected. If it is not, and the girl or boy is forced into it, then that is wrong.