Boomaker Robbery

[gordie1]

What a shame for that poor guy who died robbing Ladbrokes with an immitation gun I know it was wrong I wonder whether he had a heartattack?

[sherrardk]

But hadn't this man continued to 'compartmentalise' himself as a wrong 'un? Not saying his life was worth nothing, but this was not the first time he had done something wrong. He was a career criminal and he met a bad end. If he hadn't been there this wouldn't have happened.

[RATTER15]

Sorry Gness, I misread your post.

[gness]

Yes NOX you're so right about people being compartmentalised at a very young age. Look at the family...what do you expect.....he's not very bright so not worth the bother....I've heard it all. But there are some of us who fought against that and I was always one and hope I always will be. Which is why I am so angry at being told I am part of the problem.
But I stand by what I said........in the end each individual makes a choice.

[DTCwordfan]

If you want to widen this, NOX, you are close to one of my bugbears with this government and the last one too.

Cuts - let's look at the prison budget but in doing so let's look at who is in there.

Estimate, 7 to 15% of the prison population are ex-military, mainly army.
Population of UK prisons 90,000 roughly, take 10% and that's 9000 ex military in there.
Cost to keep a prisoner £50k a year and we have a £450mln cost
Fact - Scotland alone est 350k homeless people, estimated 1/3rd are ex military - that's more than the whole bloody army at the moment!

Conclusion - something is seriously wrong with the exit programmes for the services when they transfer back into civvy street. Lack of change programmes, opportunities, financial support and mentoring. If I was in Theresa May's Jimmy Choos and knickers, I would be taking a serious look at this with an objective of starting to realise benefits within 3 years, particularly if we are making even more redundant now...... say a budget of £50 mln a year could make enormous in-roads into this unnecessary cost and what is a national disgrace for the troops that have given service to their country.

[gness]

Yes DT. The successes are a boost. We are retired but the group I worked with still get together socially as we did last week. We always have a bit of gossip that has filtered through....the lad who has a job and was in the paper because he delivered his wife's baby at home......result! The one who was in the paper because he attacked the policeman with a machete.....bugger! We cared then and do now....but there's only so much help a person will accept.

[Orderlimit]

.... My point is more directed towards how the judicial system is failing, weak sentencing, lack of prison spaces and lack of effective rehab etc.- However, this repeat offender of very serious crime was responsible for his own actions and should have been sentenced to 10 yrs to life on his last conviction to protect the public and businesses. As mentioned, this latest episode cold have been prevented and now many more people have to suffer the issues associated with being a victim of serious crime. ((including tax payers).

The sentences are too weak for such people engaged in serious crime at this level and the prison regime (IMO) is 'soft'- and o0bviously not working

[DTCwordfan]

the same feeling as working in rescue, gness, though that is probably more immediate than yours. Elation when the missing are found alive, despondency when they are dead, but there is an unbelievable sense of frustration and perhaps "more of a shrug of the shoulders" on the latter if you find that they have been absolute plonkers[i and asked for it......and [i] do] you see them......I am sure seadogg has some rich stories as well.

[sunny-dave]

I'm not going down the 'no loss to society' route - every death is a loss to society, or should be ...

... but (you sort of heard the but coming, didn't you?) there has to be an element of personal responsibility in anyone's life - you can't just keep abdicating that responsibility to someone/anyone else.

When I had some very nasty mental health issues in my late 20s, I eventually recognised that (much as lots of other people were trying to help) the only person who could turn my life back round was me. Nothing (and nobody) else could do it for me. I eventually crawled out of the pit and am never going back, ever, at all.

Which seems to be the nub of the disagreements above - and, whatever sympathies I have for someone with a real trainwreck of a life, in the last analysis he has to take the responsibility for his actions and their horrible outcome.

Only he chose to start the situation, the people who (with almost insane bravery) tackled a gun wielding robber didn't ask for that to happen in their normal day at the bookies.

Only he must bear the blame for his regrettable death. No-one else at all - not the innocent members of the public who defeated his planned armed robbery, not the 'services' who he engaged with over the years, no-one at all - just him.

Telling people who say that he was the agent of his own misfortune that they are "part of the problem" is insulting, specious and unpleasant - I had expected better of someone who I have always respected for his sane, humane and life-affirming stance on many other issues.

Dave

[Orderlimit]

"Thats it knock the c*** out of them in jail, then they won`t re-offend, how long can people keep thinking anything along these lines will help.."

I agree Barney it probably wouldn't help

[EcclesCake]

Well said S-D.

[NOX]

Sunny Dave I didn't say that anyone who said he was the agent of his own misfortune was part of the problem- I said that anyone who didn't empathise at the death of another human being was. He is without doubt responsible for his own actions, as are we all ultimately. I thought I had clarified that, sorry if I didn't sufficiently. There are some very sensible posts coming out now though that people are actually discussing what's going on in a wider concept, rather than simply 'waste of space he did it to himself' and I can't say I disagree with many of them.

[gness]

NOX. You want us to be comforted by the fact that it was not a real gun, you tell me that I am part of the problem and you have the audacity to question my integrity as a human being and "you" want sensible posts. My goodness.

[NOX]

Yes actually Gness yes I do want sensible posts. Please tell me if you ever decide to post one and I'll look out for it.

[gness]

Not the man I thought you were after all....so disappointed in you.

[mrs_overall]

I have two words that sum up the death of the robber

Occupational hazard

[NOX]

Gness I am not going to repeatedly clarify myself to you when you decide to take umbridge at everything I say and misrepresent me to suit your current state of indignation.
I strongly disagree with you and I will not be swayed to alter my perspective simply because you don't like my opinion. At no point did I say your work was worthless, I said people who do not value another person's life and death added to the problem. You yourself stated you had no sympathy for his demise thus you bracketed yourself with those people. I cannot help your opinion and fail to see why I should alter my own.
You have no idea who I am so I fail to see the relevance of you being disappointed or not, and can't help but wonder why you place such importance on your opinion of a stranger, or why you would imagine that stranger would care either way. For the final time I did not insult you, I expressed an opinion. If you choose to be insulted where an insult was never intended personally then that is entirely your own affair.

[joko]

i see both sides here ... it is of course a tragedy that any death occurred that day.
he was a robber, but didnt deserve death for it.... but then put himself in dangerous circumstances and life and have realised he could have got hurt.
and no given what ive heard of him hes no great loss to society, but thats not the point.

there also needs to be an investigation - just because he was a thief does not give others the right to kill him - thats assuming they did more than just sit on him - i am sure many people would have got all gung ho and gone too far.

i do very much disagree with notion that people should have known it wasnt a real gun - why would they?
guns are illegal and therefore your average person has never even seen a real gun! and certainly not close up! an certainly not with any degree of confidence.

the chances of anyone knowing is slim.

[Orderlimit]

'the chances of anyone knowing is slim'

Absolutely, particularly under such stressful conditions.