ChatterBank2 mins ago
I D Cards
I was just wondering what the consensus amongst ABers was about the impending introduction of ID cards here in the UK...?
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Agree with netibiza and acw and there I can hear you all saying "Of course she does, she's been toting one around for years." That's right, and really it isn't heavy, slips easily into a pocket or a bag and if you have one to hand it can solve a lot of admin problems.
Who was saying sthg re the paperwork and things in the UK - sweetheart, you have NOTHING in GB yet - just come and see what netibiza and I are stocking, storing and applying for. What difference is an ID card going to make to your life - you're already in hundreds of files. Be better to get everything centralised. I agree the cost Mr.Blair is quoting is ridiculous, but so is his cost of a passport - so flipping expensive that I said "sud it" and I don"t have one anymore.
Anyway are they going to be obligatory?
OPPOSED
The majority, by the looks of it, are against it. And it will still go ahead. That's what worries me most. Where in insert omnipotent being of your beliefs's name is the democracy in that? Also, I haven't seen one single good argument for or against it. And it's still going ahead. This country has gone to the dogs. In fact, this world has. Just have to grin and bear it though don't we? We're only the people that populate the world, why would we want any choice in how we live it?
The majority, by the looks of it, are against it. And it will still go ahead. That's what worries me most. Where in insert omnipotent being of your beliefs's name is the democracy in that? Also, I haven't seen one single good argument for or against it. And it's still going ahead. This country has gone to the dogs. In fact, this world has. Just have to grin and bear it though don't we? We're only the people that populate the world, why would we want any choice in how we live it?
Hello Secretsquiz,
Your and jno's arguement that there is no problem becuase we already have cctv/passports/driving license etc is good, except that it misses the point that we have the right not to have these things if we so choose. ( I can choose not to go to cctv areas if I want - I appreciate its difficult, but I can).
When ID cards eventually compulsory there will be no choice.
Many people argue that if you have nothing to hide then, 'whats the problem?' The counterarguement is that if I am not a criminal or engaged in criminal activity, on what basis should I be required to prove my innocence on demand.
I'm white, middle class, well educated and indiginous to the UK (although my great granparents were illegal immigrants during the 1st World War). However, iIf you are black or asian in London you are much more likely to be stopped and searched on suspicion by a police officer. In 2004 a Metropolitan Police Authority (MPA) report showed that 68% of black people stopped on suspicion were stopped because the officer suspected they were carrying drugs. 7% of those were carrying and were arrested. It doesn't add up does it, that going about your business but because you fit a stereotype it means you can be stopped.
The SUS laws from the 60's to 1981 lead to even broader abuses.
What I take from these examples is that we are not yet mature enough as a multicultural society to prevent abuses of power.
I wonder if these examples provide some of the specifics you were asking for.
You can tell me to shut up if you like.........I get on my own nerves sometimes!
Your and jno's arguement that there is no problem becuase we already have cctv/passports/driving license etc is good, except that it misses the point that we have the right not to have these things if we so choose. ( I can choose not to go to cctv areas if I want - I appreciate its difficult, but I can).
When ID cards eventually compulsory there will be no choice.
Many people argue that if you have nothing to hide then, 'whats the problem?' The counterarguement is that if I am not a criminal or engaged in criminal activity, on what basis should I be required to prove my innocence on demand.
I'm white, middle class, well educated and indiginous to the UK (although my great granparents were illegal immigrants during the 1st World War). However, iIf you are black or asian in London you are much more likely to be stopped and searched on suspicion by a police officer. In 2004 a Metropolitan Police Authority (MPA) report showed that 68% of black people stopped on suspicion were stopped because the officer suspected they were carrying drugs. 7% of those were carrying and were arrested. It doesn't add up does it, that going about your business but because you fit a stereotype it means you can be stopped.
The SUS laws from the 60's to 1981 lead to even broader abuses.
What I take from these examples is that we are not yet mature enough as a multicultural society to prevent abuses of power.
I wonder if these examples provide some of the specifics you were asking for.
You can tell me to shut up if you like.........I get on my own nerves sometimes!
Good and bad : because you need ID to use your bank accounts etc...Identify people if the are lying about who they really are. Help track down on illegal immigrants. But cost to much, why do we have to pay? Not that kind of money anyway and its the privacy thing too. In other countries(like asia) its free, lost cards are replaced at about �15. Why should we pay for the cost of the system?
I have absolutely no problem with carrying an ID card. When we sold our last house 3 years ago I needed ID to sell the house and didn't have a picture driving licence and no up to date passport, so had to pay for a passport, even though I had no intention of going abroad and update my driving licence just so I could sell my house!
As said by HINGE
Completely opposed, and the fact that the the information commissioner said he feared the UK was in danger of becoming a "surveillance society" should raise the hairs on the back of everyone's necks. Britain is slowly developing a disturbing human rights record and we are seeing more and more freedoms being taken away from people with out evidence or due process.
And to directly pay for the privilage as well...........gobsmacked!
HEAR! HEAR!!
Completely opposed, and the fact that the the information commissioner said he feared the UK was in danger of becoming a "surveillance society" should raise the hairs on the back of everyone's necks. Britain is slowly developing a disturbing human rights record and we are seeing more and more freedoms being taken away from people with out evidence or due process.
And to directly pay for the privilage as well...........gobsmacked!
HEAR! HEAR!!
I hope all the UK citizens involved in this thread voted in the last election. Even if they went to the polling booths and submitted a spoiled ballot paper. Otherwise - you gave up your right to whinge back then. If you voted for a party that is against this policy, and you are still complaining - then that is fair enough! If you voted for a party that supports this policy because on the balance of things you wanted them in power more, then you retain the right to whinge because you at least voted.
People talk about democracy - I just wish more people would get involved with it.
Sorry to go off topic, but I feel very strongly about this.
PS - I don't think there will be so many "produce your ID card or else" stop and searches. And I still maintain that if you ARE innocent, it seems strange to object to quickly and simply showing that. When I was just turned 18 I would happily show my ID in bars - I was innocent, but they needed proof and I provided it and the matter was closed. This is the same idea only on a wider scale.
Why should there be more searches? Honestly, don't you think the police have got more important things to do with their time than giving themselves extra paperwork?
It makes me laugh how just mentioning this subject brings out the paranoia in folk. I do agree about the cost.
In France you don't have to pay for the ID card (not sure about a passport) any more and it's not compulsory anyway although it's a bloomin' sight easier to have one. I think they're talking about making it compulsory but at no cost (except for the photos)... I can't remember the last time I showed mine. I usually produce my driving licence - it's easier to find!
Artful's earlier point is the real crux - are they to be obligatory? ie will you have to carry them at all times
I think we know they will be if not at first then very shortly. The Governments use of "enabling legislation" is the giveaway to sneaky legislation here.
If they're obligatory to carry you're in the position where you can nip out for a paper and forget it and be breaking the law. (and get a fine)
It's a very short step to argue that to make the police's job easier they should be issued with detectors that interrogate the chips from a range of a few meters. Then they can just wander down the street and pull up anybody who's not carrying one or who fits the profile they want.
Do you actually want the police to have that sort of ability - they frankly can't be trusted with powerful cars without having to "test their capabilities" on the public roads.
If you think I'm being paranoid just think this technology is here now one major bomb in the UK like we saw in Spain what would the reaction be?
I think, detectors would be a little excessive and I really just don't think they'll happen.
Again, I agree with the points made - the police have better things to do. It's more that IF you're doing something wrong, you'll be asked to produce your card. I was in Germany for 6 months (as many of you know) and I crossed the road on a red pedestrian light. I hadn't spotted the police car on the other road and I got stopped and asked for my Ausweis. I explained that I wasn't a German citizen but produced my drivers license instead. Not once, in 6 months, did I see, or hear of, anyone being stopped and asked for ID. I don't see that it would be different here.
Also - what about the usual arguements that there aren't enough Bobbies on the beat? So often we hear complaints that there simply aren't enough police about, but when ID cards are mentioned, people suddenly think the streets will be swarming with them! Er..... no!
i completely agree with acw and Artful and i still don't see what the problem is for (almost) everyone else.
the most common arguments in this thread against the scheme are so vague that i really can't see any reason to oppose them.
the way most people on here are talking is as if they're expecting to be followed down to the shops by men in long coats and dark glasses making notes on clipboards! which i think is a bit far fetched!
and if you're worried about getting a fine when you nip out to get a paper - simple! don't forget to take it with you!
Secretsquiz,
I agree that being "followed down to the shops bymen in long coats and dark glasses making notes on clipboards" does sound a "bit far fetched"!!
Are there any persuasive arguements in favour of ID cards other than I don't mind them and and those against are paranoid?
Centralisation and the fact that there are already lots of files seem like a stronger argument against rather than for
PS this post looks far more aggressive and challenging in than it is intended to - I like a good debate
PPS Are you talking about me? Who said I'm paranoid? You're all just out to get me
PPPS Still quite happy to be told to stop going on, I suspect this is topic that you are bothered about or not and there will be little chance of changing other's view by debate.
I agree that being "followed down to the shops bymen in long coats and dark glasses making notes on clipboards" does sound a "bit far fetched"!!
Are there any persuasive arguements in favour of ID cards other than I don't mind them and and those against are paranoid?
Centralisation and the fact that there are already lots of files seem like a stronger argument against rather than for
PS this post looks far more aggressive and challenging in than it is intended to - I like a good debate
PPS Are you talking about me? Who said I'm paranoid? You're all just out to get me
PPPS Still quite happy to be told to stop going on, I suspect this is topic that you are bothered about or not and there will be little chance of changing other's view by debate.
Here's a little website outlining an against argument :
http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/whyNot.php
Can anyone find a list for the 'for' argument?
http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/whyNot.php
Can anyone find a list for the 'for' argument?
Well I'm shocked Netbiza!
I am one of the many tourists in Madrid to have my credit cards stolen by 'plain clothes policemen'. Yeah, you'll say there arent any - as I learnt. Apparently no-0ne can search you unless they have a uniform on. Is that right? None of the brits know this and cheerfully give up their cards and passports to anyone who says, 'Allo. I am poleeeeth...' Then they thay - "you go to Calle de legoncitos...." to pick zem up. Of course you cant pick them up because they werent police, but there is police station there, and you can join the q to report the loss.
identity searches - what an industry waiting to happen
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