Is Nowt Sacred?

[Gromit]

A Primary School in Middlesborough has issued a lust of banned words and phrases. On the list is a word I use every day - 'Nowt.

I can see why some words should be banned but not dialect words. Such words denote regional character.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/primaryeducation/9851236/Middlesbrough-primary-school-issues-list-of-incorrect-words.html

Do you agree with banning regional words from the playground?

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

/// Children who speak English as a second language wouldn't have to be corrected in this manner - because they've been taught the language and it's structure. ///

But it doesn't necessarily follow that they speak it.

Please do not accuse me of being racist when I say this, but most black youngsters, and even adults seem to speak an entirely different type of English, so much so that in most cases one has only to listen to them speak to know instantly that they are not white.

Why is this when they have been born and educated in this country?

[sp1814]

I already answered that question on one of your recent threads.

Furthermore, you need to clarify which black Britons you're referring to. Most will speak English as a first language, not second, and what you're hearing is a regional dialect, no different from Geordie, Scouse or Cockney.

Like I said before, it's a uniquely British dialect when exists nowhere else.

[sp1814]

This is what I wrote on your previous thread:


AOG

That's a very interesting question, with a very strange answer...

If you listen to young black, Asian and white kids who live in the same urban areas, they have exactly the same accent.

It's not a West Indian accent, it's more a mix of West Indian and cockney. It's a brand new accent that didn't exist when I was growing up.

If you go to YouTube and do a search for Dizzy Rascal being interviewed, you'll notice that his speech patterns are very close to those of Tulisa and Dappy (formerly of N'Dubz) - and they're from Greek extraction.

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question1212114-3.html

It was the thread you raised on the VW ad.

Does this explain it?

[rockyracoon]

Ummm, I grew up in London, the phrase was 'you frit the life out of me', a euphemism I'm sure ;)

[FredPuli43]

A curious case of what sp describes is Roisin Conaty. She appears sometimes on Radio 4 " The News Quiz". When I heard her, I was convinced that she was a young black woman from North London. She is, in fact, blonde, white, 33, and of Irish parentage. But she was born in Camden, North London. There was a time when the Irish accent predominated in Camden and adjacent areas, but here is a woman of Irish descent and with an Irish name who has the current local accent.

[EcclesCake]

Jake, by properly I mean not using slang and dialect. When I'm working my professional voice and vocabulary are very different to how I speak and what I say in the pub, the same goes for my written communication.

Like I say, in my view it is about learning what is appropriate in given situations.

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

/// what you're hearing is a regional dialect, no different from Geordie, Scouse or Cockney. ///

Precisely why I brought it up on this thread which appertains to the banning by this head of certain words.

[boxtops]

Eccles, hear hear - my work language is very different from "home speak" - you have to learn what is appropriate in a range of settings, and starting young doesn't seem to be a problem to me.

[shoota]

They wouldn't let me call myself Shoota then....

[sp1814]

AOG

I was answering your question on why black kids spoke with the accent they do. I may be wrong, but it seemed you were asking why black Britons spoke with an accent alien to the UK. I counter that their accent is very British, and nothing like their forebears who came to the UK in the 50s and 60s.

If you listen to Dizzy Rascal's accent and then to Bob Marley's, you can hear that they sound nothing alike.

Furthermore, it's an accent that is shared by many peers who come from the same area. A white kid from Peckham or Dalston will sound more like Tinie Tempah than Tiny Rowlands.

Does that answer your question?

[magsmay]

Grammar should be corrected -it has nothing to do with regional accents -there are rules for grammar and they should be corrected. It would be very difficult to stop words like 'Nowt' and 'Yous Lot' being used in the playground but children should be told the correct words to use otherwise they will be handicapped when doing exams and writing C.V. 's. what they should do is teach them to say 'Thank you' -that seems to be going rapidly out of fashion!

[AB Editor]

I like "nowt" - didn't think it was Northern though, I thought it has fairly established roots in old English -probably nestled up next to naught?

[AB Editor]

"my work language is very different from "home speak" - you have to learn what is appropriate in a range of settings, and starting young doesn't seem to be a problem to me."

Yes. Those who can't grasp the concept of different registers for different occasions probably shouldn't be allowed to be a teacher...

[jd_1984]

Banned in the playground, but not, I assume at home. So will this cause confusion for the child. "My parents say Nowt in the house, so why is it bad" etc....??

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

/// Furthermore, it's an accent that is shared by many peers who come from the same area. A white kid from Peckham or Dalston will sound more like Tinie Tempah than Tiny Rowlands. ///

Don't mention Dr David Starkey I hear one say.

[FredPuli43]

Aog, did you know that there is a Jewish accent ? It's not Ron Moody playing Fagin. Jewish women in London, from traditional Jewish areas such as Hendon, have a distinct timbre and accent. It may be slowly dying out, because I don't notice it as much in young women. And men don't have the equivalent,or, at least, I can't hear one, but it can be heard in middle-aged and older women. At first, years ago, I thought it was just the universal accent of the area, but it isn't. And the explanation must be, as with other modes of speech, that it is acquired by exposure and copying of what the child hears, in a fairly tight knit community.

When everybody in the area tends to speak a certain way, black or white,they'll all eventually sound the same. When they mix freely with, or are overwhelmed, by a mass of people from outside their area, the accent will gradually die

[NOX]

I have no issue with spelling being corrected and grammar implemented properly, but I do object very strongly to regional words like ' Nowt' being on the list.
I'm from Belfast so my own dialect involves odd and strange phrases to the RP community but I don't use them in formal situations, I will however tell someone their baby is ' pure gorgeous' ask 'Did yousuns go to the match' or ' Have you the price of a pint on you?' but I'm not going to be doing that if it's a formal situation.
Dialect needs to be preserved not dismantled by teachers too dense to teach the difference between standard English and dialect and it's use in appropriate situations..

[ChillDoubt]

What NOX said.

Local dialects are part of the makeup of these islands and long may they remain so.

As for nowt, it appears to be used countrywide to some extent. I/we use it and hear it often in N. Wales.

[Scylax]

I suppose that many (most?) people have 2 modes of speech, RP and dialect. I can revert to my native Geordie accent and dialect easily, and do so for the amusement of friends and colleagues. Many think that I am just a good mimic, as I would not dream of using this primitive incomprehensible argot for anything but a laugh. It's not good English; it's barely English at all.

Bravo, the head teacher who seeks to educate her charges. That is her job.

[sp1814]

AOG

Do you get the point I've made about dialects?

I ask, because you've raised it on two threads now, and I'm not sure if I explained it well enough the first time.