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Are We *ever* Going To Get Over Wwii ?
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Yet another commemoration - this time 70 years of the Atlantic campaign
http://
Given that WWII lasted about 5 years by the time you've commemorated a VE day anniversary it seems time to start celebrating anothe anniversary of the start of the War!
I hear the cries of 'ingrate' already and patriotic chests puffing up like pidgeons - but WWI was just as formative to those who fought in it and I don't recall continual commemorations of that from my childhood.
Why are we so obsessed with WWII and are we ever going to get over it?
http://
Given that WWII lasted about 5 years by the time you've commemorated a VE day anniversary it seems time to start celebrating anothe anniversary of the start of the War!
I hear the cries of 'ingrate' already and patriotic chests puffing up like pidgeons - but WWI was just as formative to those who fought in it and I don't recall continual commemorations of that from my childhood.
Why are we so obsessed with WWII and are we ever going to get over it?
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Yet Geert Wilders, that mad Dutch racist neo-Nazi, invited to the HoLords by no less than Lord Pearson, (ex UKIP leader) quoted Churchill along side some disgusting comments against the Muslim faith......
And before someone comments on the juxtaposition of this to my 'bastardisation' of Churchill's famous speech, mine was just in jest, Wilders was earnestly serious.
And before someone comments on the juxtaposition of this to my 'bastardisation' of Churchill's famous speech, mine was just in jest, Wilders was earnestly serious.
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Kromovaracun
/// Apologise for implying that I am a Stalinist. ///
It seems to have upset you so much, so unlike others who have called me many worse things of which I am not, I am therefore prepared to be the better person by openly apologising to you for my implication.
/// So it isn't Stalinist or even sympathetic to Stalin to insinuate that the Eastern front had a greater role in effecting the Nazi surrender. ///
Perhaps not but a little misguided perhaps, as I have previously said we helped the Russian people immensely with aid and food via the Arctic Convoys, not forgetting the RAF night raids and the USAAF day raids during the five month long Ruhr valley bombing campaign, the bombing of rail marshalling yards, submarine pens, and munition factories all which helped to bring about Germany's downfall.
/// Apologise for implying that I am a Stalinist. ///
It seems to have upset you so much, so unlike others who have called me many worse things of which I am not, I am therefore prepared to be the better person by openly apologising to you for my implication.
/// So it isn't Stalinist or even sympathetic to Stalin to insinuate that the Eastern front had a greater role in effecting the Nazi surrender. ///
Perhaps not but a little misguided perhaps, as I have previously said we helped the Russian people immensely with aid and food via the Arctic Convoys, not forgetting the RAF night raids and the USAAF day raids during the five month long Ruhr valley bombing campaign, the bombing of rail marshalling yards, submarine pens, and munition factories all which helped to bring about Germany's downfall.
Perhaps the War is just too complicated to ascribe full credit to one side or another, but on simple numerical arguments it's clear that we owe a huge debt of gratitude to the millions upon millions of Russians who gave their lives so dearly in defence of their homeland. In total the German Forces committed to the Eastern front numbered 4 million. We landed about 1.2 million men in total in France in 1944, and by the time the Germans could muster an army of just about the same size
The Ruhr, Engima, Food parcels, bombing raids... all of it I think would have been for nothing if the German Army were in 1944 strong enough to deal with an invasion on the Western Front. We owe the Russians so much for their role in destroying the backbone of the German army, so that our invasions of Italy and France were even possible.
The Ruhr, Engima, Food parcels, bombing raids... all of it I think would have been for nothing if the German Army were in 1944 strong enough to deal with an invasion on the Western Front. We owe the Russians so much for their role in destroying the backbone of the German army, so that our invasions of Italy and France were even possible.
sp1814
/// I'm still lost. How on earth did the Lawrences get into this one? ///
Since it seems you can't be bothered to trace back I have done it for you, it was in answer to JTP.
jake-the-peg
/// But wouldn't it be nice if they flew the flags there of all the countries that fought in those wars side by side ///
/// The German flag next to the French, the Britsh next to the Japanese ///
I am sure that even in death some who suffered in the hands of the Germans and the Japanese would turn in their graves at that very thought.
Should the the Lawrence family also join the killers of Stephen Lawrence in their forgiveness of each other?
It is generally best on this site to use examples that some can easily connect with.
/// I'm still lost. How on earth did the Lawrences get into this one? ///
Since it seems you can't be bothered to trace back I have done it for you, it was in answer to JTP.
jake-the-peg
/// But wouldn't it be nice if they flew the flags there of all the countries that fought in those wars side by side ///
/// The German flag next to the French, the Britsh next to the Japanese ///
I am sure that even in death some who suffered in the hands of the Germans and the Japanese would turn in their graves at that very thought.
Should the the Lawrence family also join the killers of Stephen Lawrence in their forgiveness of each other?
It is generally best on this site to use examples that some can easily connect with.
/// The Ruhr, Engima, Food parcels, bombing raids... all of it I think would have been for nothing if the German Army were in 1944 strong enough to deal with an invasion on the Western Front. ///
And is it not because of those bombing raids, that the German Army, the Luftwaffe, and their Navy were not strong enough?
And is it not because of those bombing raids, that the German Army, the Luftwaffe, and their Navy were not strong enough?
Possibly, but that's disputed anyway. Either way the German Army was strong enough to punch to within 5 miles of Moscow at one point. Just five miles...
The Russian Winter probably did far more damage than the British Bombs. And the Russian army did the delaying work to make that Winter come into play. This was in 1941. Just say Thank you to Russia, it won't hurt.
The Russian Winter probably did far more damage than the British Bombs. And the Russian army did the delaying work to make that Winter come into play. This was in 1941. Just say Thank you to Russia, it won't hurt.
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There seemed to be a lot of posts demeaning Britain's contribution, jim, telling people to get history lessons, etc.
The RAF beat the Luftwaffe at the outset of the war and operated throughout.
Possibly had the largest navy at the outset and again operated throughout.
Our intelligence agencies and technological contribution was immense.
The RAF beat the Luftwaffe at the outset of the war and operated throughout.
Possibly had the largest navy at the outset and again operated throughout.
Our intelligence agencies and technological contribution was immense.
Bizarrely even this argument over whose roles in WWII are the most significant perhaps explains why we aren't going to get over it for some time yet. There's so much about the war that demands study, that shapes too who we are as a nation. If World War One killed a generation and reshaped the role of Women in Society, then World War Two possibly destroyed the old Britain entirely. Afterwards we could no longer hold on to, or claim to hold on to, our Empire, so we lost our leading role on the World stage to America and The Soviet Union. Perversely, even Germany, despite all the hundreds of thousands of bombs we dropped on it gutting some of their old cities, rose very quickly again and now is at the head of the new EU.
If you follow the Andrew Marr (and others) school of thought then effectively the biggest casualty of the Second World War was the British Empire. So it has shaped us as a nation, made us smaller and made us feel smaller. As a result we need to turn to all of the good times of that dark era, when for a time in 1940 the only thing standing between Hitler and conquering Europe was Britain, and its lifeline from America. It's something we can still cling on to. And, yes, as can be seen, it's something that the older generation don't want to let go of just yet. AOG's, and svejk's, and others', apparent refusal to credit the Soviet Union for its significant role in final victory is some evidence of that.
From my perspective the three most significant moments in the European war would be:
- the Battle of Britain, when mostly British (as well as ANZ, Canadian, Polish and Czech in particular) pilots stopped Hitler from finishing Western Europe off;
- the Soviet victories in 1941 and 1942 that broke the back of the Axis army and paved the way for victory;
- and perhaps El-Alamein when the Western Allies started to win too.
This is of course far too simplistic and overlooks events in the Atlantic, or Enigma, or bombing, or D-Day, or goodness knows what else.
It's worth remembering that in 1942 the German Army of by then 1,300,000 that attacked Russia suffered ultimate total casualties of over a million, or about 80%. Such losses could never be sustainable, and probably mark the difference between a German victory and an Allied one.
If Britain stopped Hitler from winning the War, then the Russians started our winning it.
If you follow the Andrew Marr (and others) school of thought then effectively the biggest casualty of the Second World War was the British Empire. So it has shaped us as a nation, made us smaller and made us feel smaller. As a result we need to turn to all of the good times of that dark era, when for a time in 1940 the only thing standing between Hitler and conquering Europe was Britain, and its lifeline from America. It's something we can still cling on to. And, yes, as can be seen, it's something that the older generation don't want to let go of just yet. AOG's, and svejk's, and others', apparent refusal to credit the Soviet Union for its significant role in final victory is some evidence of that.
From my perspective the three most significant moments in the European war would be:
- the Battle of Britain, when mostly British (as well as ANZ, Canadian, Polish and Czech in particular) pilots stopped Hitler from finishing Western Europe off;
- the Soviet victories in 1941 and 1942 that broke the back of the Axis army and paved the way for victory;
- and perhaps El-Alamein when the Western Allies started to win too.
This is of course far too simplistic and overlooks events in the Atlantic, or Enigma, or bombing, or D-Day, or goodness knows what else.
It's worth remembering that in 1942 the German Army of by then 1,300,000 that attacked Russia suffered ultimate total casualties of over a million, or about 80%. Such losses could never be sustainable, and probably mark the difference between a German victory and an Allied one.
If Britain stopped Hitler from winning the War, then the Russians started our winning it.
jim, I don't think it was simply a question of numbers. Rape by British soldiers was very small (and severely punished) compared to the 'industrial scale' of this crime committed by Russian soldiers. This makes astonishing reading; http://
Well yes, once you share the numbers...
Svejk, I don't ever want to belittle or demean the contributions made by British and Western Allies during WWII. They were huge and important and we all owe those who fought or served their country our thanks. It's just that the same applies for Russia, perhaps even more so, but it seems that some people want to demean or belittle their role.
Svejk, I don't ever want to belittle or demean the contributions made by British and Western Allies during WWII. They were huge and important and we all owe those who fought or served their country our thanks. It's just that the same applies for Russia, perhaps even more so, but it seems that some people want to demean or belittle their role.
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