Girl Guides

[FredPuli43]

Tonight's Sky News reports that the Girl Guides have decided to change their oath. Gone is any reference to God, being true to myself and my beliefs being substituted, and to my country, my community being substituted. However Guides will still swear allegiance to the Queen, their patron. Is the removal of any allegiance to your country a foolish step? Community suggests a divisiveness which we should be at pains to stop.

[Octavius]

Or many of the religious felt that any religious test might be one engineered for particular sects (say, a Jewish test for Roman Catholics) and thus exclude them from office.

[LazyGun]

@ Mikey I agree that religion is important in the US, but as far as the official machinery of state is concerned, they are avowedly secular- church- state separation is alive and well, unlike here in the UK with out cohort of unelected bishops sitting in the House of Lords. etc.

Much of the religious observance at council meetings in the US - prayers before starting, that sort of thing - are being challenged, and are I think technically unconstitutional ( although I might have that wrong). Indeed, there is no constitutional reason why the President needs to swear an oath to god on the bible, as they currently do - but it has become a tradition.

And you are of course right that it is more likely that, say, a muslim or a hindu is more likely to be elected ahead of a self-declared atheist.

That is slowly changing though- religious observances in schools, in courthouses and other state institutions are regularly challenged, and there is an increase in self-declared agnostics/atheists/no religion individuals, as evidenced by a recent survey...

[jake-the-peg]

Yes sqad inappropriate for our modern times

it's called 'change' - build a bridge and get over it

Nationalism was a major cause of two world wars in the last century - nothing to do with immigration every thing to do with the cynical stoking of patriotism in the gullible

[Octavius]

Is mentioning Islamification and Immigration the new Godwin?

[Sqad]

Jake.

\\\\Nationalism was a major cause of two world wars in the last century - nothing to do with immigration every thing to do with the cynical stoking of patriotism in the gullible \\\

That was then, this is now.........different problems........nothing to do with immigration?...perhaps the Jewish community might disagree.

"It's called 'change' - build a bridge and get over it "

Yes, you are correct..........although over my lifespan, I have seen many bridges collapse....

[mikey4444]

Boo...what about the little girls in Little Boos Brownie pack that don't believe in any God, whatever its name ? Do they just say the words like I did when I was involved with the Scouting movement, but kept my fingers crossed behind my back, because I didn't really mean it ?

[boxtops]

IMO it's a good move to take out the religious references. Our army cadets are inducted by the squadron padre - I have often thought it out of place these days, when they may be of a different religion or none, to give them a Bible when they join and bless them in the name of the CofE.

[mikey4444]

LazyGun...I hope what you say is true but I am still worried that more than 50% of American believe in the literal truth of the Bible. This means, therefore, that they reject most of modern science. This is very scary in a nation that has its finger on the "fire" button of the Bomb.

[jno]

this poll says 30%

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/08/biblical-literalism_n_893358.html

[AB Editor]

Not sure about removing the "country" part but certainly changing to a more ambiguous God term is very sensible.

How many children are likely to believe in God because their parents do? This is a very young age to be deciding about religion.

I do like the "community" part, because it can be interpreted in many ways.

To most kids it will probably mean just their street or school, which is a great start.

[chrisgel]

LG -//church- state separation is alive and well//
Whilst I agree with you that the constitution, if followed, is an admirable document that we would do well to adopt in this country. I cannot find anywhere a single American politician who is a declared atheist.
I have read that it is impossible for an atheist to get elected for any sort of public office in America. I obviously can't verify that as a fact but, as stated, there are no atheists in the US government to my knowledge.

[chrisgel]

Jno - From the same poll,
While 30 percent responded that the Bible is the actual word of God, a clear plurality of 49 percent preferred the second interpretation, and 17 percent believe the Bible to be a book of fables and legends.

The second interpretation being.
The Bible is the inspired word of God, but not everything in it should be taken literally.

[Old_Geezer]

Removal of references to God and royalty are a good thing since it makes the pledge less formality and more meaningful. But country is simply the large community we live in. I don't see that substitution as helpful.

[sammmo]

Hi Fred, no I am English. I am not a racist but I think this move is just another case of de christianising this country.when the queen dies and someone writes a new national anthem, I wouldn,t mind betting that the the word GOD is missing from it. This in my opinion is how things in this country and the USA are going..

[LazyGun]

@Sammo. "I think this move is just another case of de christianising this country" - well, thats a good thing, in my opinion.

Neither the Guides nor the Scouts come to that were founded as expressly christian organisations.

In an era of a secular society with multiple faiths, and significant minority professing none, removing god from state and government institutions as well as organisations like the Guides and Scouts is welcome progress toward a more inclusive society that better reflects modern day cultural values.

And once again - despite what US citizens might think, the USA was not founded as a specifically christian society. The founding fathers, when constructing the constitution very carefully separated church from state. Showed a lot of common sense and foresight, those guys...

[FredPuli43]

And ,sammo, "In God we trust" was itself first put on coinage, in 1864, because the Unionists wanted to suggest that God was on their side in the Civil War and was adopted as an alternative to "e pluribus unum" in 1956 because Eisenhower wanted to distinguish the US from the godless communists of the USSR. These were political decisions, contrary to the spirit of the Constitution.

As a Briton you seem to believe that having a (Christian) God is a requirement of being British.Why else would you complain if God, who is, after all, being asked to do our political dirty work in the anthem, was removed from it?

[ludwig]

There are loads of people living in this country who feel a sense of loyalty to their community, but none to the country.

The guides recognises this fact and doesn't want to exclude them as potential members. Simple as that really.

[emmie]

lets hope there is not a war on the horizon if they don't have any loyalty to the country, not that we are sending guides to war of course.

[emmie]

sammo, there won't be a need to write another national anthem,

[jake-the-peg]

That em is a false dichotomy

Just because someone does not see themselves as a patriot does not make them about to sell out to the other side the moment a war breaks out.

To me the essence of the patriot is 'My country right or wrong'

I'm sorry but if my country is in the wrong I will not support it.

I don't see much admiration for the patriots fighting for Germany in WWII