London shooting

[chompu]

 I know this subject has already attracted much debate but I am curious what action those ABs, who have been critical of the police to a greater or lesser extent,would have taken in the circumstances as we know them. I haven't seen any solutions from them among their replies.

[jno]

require better intelligence before killing people. I mean intelligence in the sense of information, not IQ. Whatever they thought their victim was, or was doing, was 100% wrong. Whether this was because of some individual who wasn't up to his job, or because the whole intelligence-gathering operation was faulty, we don't know; and it doesn't matter (though it should be immediately identified and corrected). Making 'split-second decisions' on the basis of totally wrong information is not good enough... as you may come to agree if you're the next victim.

[Oneeyedvic]

Got to be honest and am not sure I have much better solutions other than the one menttioned by jno.

However, what about using stun guns as opposed to hand guns - very effective from the reports I have read. Why not use 'bang flash' grenades that are non lethal but make it impossible to even pull a trigger when the gun is in the hand.

That all said, whether Tony likes it or not, a lot of these problems have been casued by both our allegiance to the US and the invading of Iraq.

To all those that supported the war - well done - now you see the repercussions (or (more likely) you can carry on burying your heads in the sand and denying it was anything to do with the war)

[jake-the-peg]

I would either have shot the guy as he was escaping or would have handcuffed him whilst he was being held on the ground by the other police.

I would *not* have shot him while he was being held on the ground.

I sure as hell wouldn't have let him get on a bus if I thought he was a suicide bomber!

[Dom Tuk]

The problem as i see it is that in a very closed and complex world of international terrorism the police are under pressure to be seen to be doing something.  They have in the past 5 years arrested hundreds of people but a vast number (almost all) of these have not resulted in prosecutions. recently they have had to release many of those arrested after the 9/11 bombings because face it they cannot bring a successful prosecution based on what they have. The reasons could be the international dimension to teh whole thing. The sharing of information with other countries may be good but bringing it to court is another matter. Besides the operatives enter and leave the country at will, so what are the police to do. There is also political pressure to show that something is being done so arrests take place and then they are quietly released. The first person arrested after the 7/7 bombings is released without charge. So bad information, rigid court procedures, a liberal justice system are all to blame.

[nedflanders]

Better Intelligence ! We have one of the best Intelligence services in the world ! If the guy wasnt and Illegal alien they might of had a better idea of who he was! I think they did the right thing IMHO.

[jno]

One of the best intelligence services in the world? Says who, exactly? By what measure? And how do they know?

I think if you trace any such claim back to its source you'll find it comes from ... the intelligence services, and their mouthpieces in the government and the media.

The only way to judge them is by results. Despite the evidence of 9/11 they failed to stop the initial bombings of London, and then failed to stop the second burst. They killed Mr de Menezes on the basis of intelligence which, I repeat, was totally utterly entirely absolutely 100% wrong. (He wasn't an illegal alien, he'd been here legitimately and overstayed his visa - plenty of time for them to have discovered his al-Qaeda links, or lack of them). Kill the wrong man, fail to stop the right ones: sounds like a total failure of intelligence to me.

[Dom Tuk]

Also at a time when the leadres of the worlds 8 richest nations and their entourages are in the country, 4 bombs explode in your capital city. This is equivalent to a public humiliation in the eyes of the world.

Now as for the untold crimes, rapes, robberies that have been unsolved in this country.......the list is endless.

And dont forget the WMDs. the intelligence that came or did not come from our services was quickly siezed and warped by the govt (no just tony) to suit its purposes.

[Oneeyedvic]

Ned

not to mention the best intelligence that proved Weapons of Mass Destruction were alive and kicking.....

"I think they did the right thing IMHO"......

dear God, they shoot an innocent man and you think they did the right thing!

and what has being an illegal alien got to do with anything? If he was here on a tourist / student visa, how will that have changed anything.

I suppose you think if ID cards were introduced, we wouldn't have had any bombings.

welcome to Brainwashed Britain

[Dom Tuk]

to be fair to nedflanders, if you have overstayed your visa then you are technically an illegal in this country (i do not know if this is true in the case of the unfortunate brazilian). Now try and work out how many such overstayers are there in London alone and you will not believe the answer. It is staggering. But no illegal in this country deserves to be shot on a train.

[jno]

yes DT, I didn't mean he was in the country legally at the time of his death; but he'd entered legally and should therefore have been on databases, unlike someone who'd sneaked in clinging to the underside of Eurostar and would be truly untraceable.

[nedflanders]

Oneeyedvic They didnt know he was innocent at the time they shot him did they? This happened less than 24 hours after the attempted attacks.  It is not a series of "24" it is real life.  If he had been another bomber and they hadnt taken evasive action you would all have been on here protesting that they should have shot him!!!! The police/Intelligence services cant win with you people! As Chompu says dont hear any solutions ????

[Oneeyedvic]

ned - read the above answers - can you not see any solutions?

By your own words "they didn't know he was innocent when they shot him" but also "we have one of the best intelligece services in the world"?????

Seems to me (and others) that we don't have the best intelligence in the world, but as long as people like you believe we have, and that collatoral damage of innocent people is acceptable, we won't get a better intelligence service.

as to "if it had been a bomber...." well what about the 2 1/2 miles that he was trailed - he could have put a bomb anywhere without issues.

[nedflanders]

tell you what you vote for the lib dems next time and we'll see what kind of defence our country has!

[Oneeyedvic]

Oh dear ned - is that the best you can do - accuse me of being a Lib dem supporter.

I'm sure defense is the most important thing this country needs

Lets spend billions on the armed services - send them to an illegal war (where oil is involved) ignore issues like Zimbabwe & Dharfur where just as many people are dying.

Doesn't matter that people die in hospitals everyday, irrelevant that poverty is rife in the world and countless other problmes that face this country and the world.

Lets spend billions on defense - and exactly who do you think will be invading us? That's what defense means.

If we must trade stereotypical insults - Go back to reading the Daily Mail :-)

[chompu]

 As I expected, no real practical suggestions. Better intelligence? The block of flats had only been under surveillance for less than 24 hours. Hardly time to build up a comprehensive picture. With the size of the block I can't believe that this man was the only person to leave during that time. It would be interesting to know if any other person was followed, checked out and released. Wearing a large outer coat on a very hot day must have raised suspicions.So he was followed . His behaviour then escalates the situation ending in his tragic death.

Since 7/7 armed police must have checked hundreds of what they believed were suspcious but no one else has been shot.

Firing as he ran wasn't an option.Very little chance of a clean hit and a possibility of hitting members of the public.As Ned said, this isn't the cinema. Physically overpowering a person is not easy even with 3 or 4 of you and as they obviously thought he was a bomber if they attempted this and they lost control of one arm for a split second everyone is blown to bits. The use of stun gun. Did officers there have them. I don't think they may be as sucessful in stopping someone from triggering a device. I know it was reported it was used in arresting the suspect bomber in Birmingham But then it was only

police officers in danger and not the public. Given the circumstances I don't think the police could have done any different. I would also say, because I haven't seen it said anywhere else, the fact that they obviously thought he was a bomber makes their actions of actually physically grappling with him extremely brave considering  they must have thought that at any second they were going to be blown to bits.

[nedflanders]

I wasnt talking about military defense I was talking about MI5/MI6.  As for Mugabe and Sudan I totally agree with you we should be doing something but that is not the issue here!

[nedflanders]

Oh and I read the Glasgow Herald actually!

[jno]

Latest news says he was wearing a jeans jacket, not a heavy coat, and didn't jump the ticket barrier but went in with his tube pass.

It won't do to say they only had 24 hours' worth of surveillance. If they hadn't done enough - and they obviously hadn't - then where's the justification for shooting? It seems their information was so poor they couldn't even see what he was wearing. Personally, if I'm to be shot for terroristic use of a tube pass, I'd like to think it would be by someone who could actually see me, not someone whose vision is so blurred he imagines I'm wearing an overcoat on a summer's day. It looks as though they saw what they wanted to see, and that's no way to win a war.

[Oneeyedvic]

"no real practical solutions.."

No, you are right, I cannot offer a practical solution - I don't have the time or inclination to read every report as to the effectiveness of stun guns / tasers.

I don't have access to what the defense budget is in this country or what it is spent on.

I don't know how many people work for MI5 and it what capacities. I am unaware of what technology can really do to aid surveillance.

I suspect that you don't either

Therefore it is impossible to come up with a solution.

FACT: An innocent person was shot on the tube.

FACT: First reports (by police) were that he was wearing a heavy jacket, jumping over barriers, and 5 bullets were shot.

This has now changed - denim jacket, used a pass to go through barriers, and 9 bullets.

 

None of us know what the real facts of the case are. All we can do is speculate.

I am aware that it is easy to condem something after it has taken place. I do not blame the police officer in question. I do however think that we need to look at 'intelligence', the use of non lethal methods of capture, and our foreign policy.

 

(Ned - I don't vote Lib Dem either) ;-)

[jimmer]

to start with they could stop shooting innocent people. there are serious flaws in the argument that allowing the police to go around shooting people "just in case" will stop terrorists. Oh yeah well he could have been a terrorist couldn't he? Quite frankly, who couldn't? do terrorists have to look a certain way? or is that just in your mind? would you feel more or less safe if we go round shooting people willy nilly?

on a possitive note. We could stop being a mouth piece for new right fundamentalism.

 

jimmer