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Is This Sheer Patronising Towards Black People?
69 Answers
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If a character in a play, film, tv programme etc, etc needs to be a black person, then all right they should be selected, but to create parts simply to provide the token black person for political correct reasons is wrong.
/// Julian Fellowes believes it is necessary – because the black community need to see more positive role models on TV. ///
We are seeing this type of thing happening all over the media, but what about the Chinese community do they ever get their fair share of opportunities?
If a character in a play, film, tv programme etc, etc needs to be a black person, then all right they should be selected, but to create parts simply to provide the token black person for political correct reasons is wrong.
/// Julian Fellowes believes it is necessary – because the black community need to see more positive role models on TV. ///
We are seeing this type of thing happening all over the media, but what about the Chinese community do they ever get their fair share of opportunities?
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as long as they can destoy this countries white identity thats all they are concerned about.
I remember seeing some article a few years ago on the the Blatantly Biased Corporation site where they were asked why there were always so may blacks ans asians in their news items on schools, if there was report on whatever and it was in a school it was nearly always mainly blacks and or asians kids shown...their explanation was so long winded laughable and ridiculous it became embarrasing to read, they also said they used some sort of equation or calculation i cant remember exactly, to determine how many ethnics they should show
I remember seeing some article a few years ago on the the Blatantly Biased Corporation site where they were asked why there were always so may blacks ans asians in their news items on schools, if there was report on whatever and it was in a school it was nearly always mainly blacks and or asians kids shown...their explanation was so long winded laughable and ridiculous it became embarrasing to read, they also said they used some sort of equation or calculation i cant remember exactly, to determine how many ethnics they should show
AOG
I think there's a difference between clumsily inserting a black character into a drama, and simply employing talented actors who simply happen to be black.
We have a number of extremely capable black and bi-racial actors (off the top of my head Idris Elba, Thandie Newton, David Harewood, Chiwetel Ejiofor (Best Actor nominee at next Oscars), Adrian Lester, Noel Clarke, Naomie Harris...and I think it is true to think of these as in any way 'token'.
The idea of tokenism is one often levelled at black people (actors in this thread), which is quite insulting, because it assumes that they are in some way there for the reason of their skin colour and nothing else.
To create parts which are specifically designed to be played by black actors is no more patronising than creating roles specifically to be played by actresses. TV and film directors want to reflect real life - and real life isn't monochrome.
I think there's a difference between clumsily inserting a black character into a drama, and simply employing talented actors who simply happen to be black.
We have a number of extremely capable black and bi-racial actors (off the top of my head Idris Elba, Thandie Newton, David Harewood, Chiwetel Ejiofor (Best Actor nominee at next Oscars), Adrian Lester, Noel Clarke, Naomie Harris...and I think it is true to think of these as in any way 'token'.
The idea of tokenism is one often levelled at black people (actors in this thread), which is quite insulting, because it assumes that they are in some way there for the reason of their skin colour and nothing else.
To create parts which are specifically designed to be played by black actors is no more patronising than creating roles specifically to be played by actresses. TV and film directors want to reflect real life - and real life isn't monochrome.
AOG
When asked if the default for all film and tv should be white Anglo Saxon, you said 'Yes, in a predominantly white Anglo Saxon country such as this...'
That seems an odd thing to write, because it suggests that producers and directors default to employing white actors, giving them an advantage in casting over equally talented black actors.
Shouldn't producers and casting directors simply choose who is best for the role?
When asked if the default for all film and tv should be white Anglo Saxon, you said 'Yes, in a predominantly white Anglo Saxon country such as this...'
That seems an odd thing to write, because it suggests that producers and directors default to employing white actors, giving them an advantage in casting over equally talented black actors.
Shouldn't producers and casting directors simply choose who is best for the role?
"As long as they can destroy the white identity of this country...."
2001 Census: Total percentage of UK population : Black people 2 per cent and 'Asians' (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi) 3.9 per cent
How far do people have to go to destroy the identity of the country as white ? When will the ordinary citizen think that Britain is not a white country?
Do you , baz, think of the US as having a white identity ? It has 12.6 per cent black in its population.
2001 Census: Total percentage of UK population : Black people 2 per cent and 'Asians' (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi) 3.9 per cent
How far do people have to go to destroy the identity of the country as white ? When will the ordinary citizen think that Britain is not a white country?
Do you , baz, think of the US as having a white identity ? It has 12.6 per cent black in its population.
What's wrong with being black or in another ethnic minority ? Is not as though they suffer abuse , is it?
Pretty obvious why insurance ads and political photo shoots etc include a mixture of colours in the people depicted. It's to show they welcome everybody. Can't imagine why blacks or Asians would ever think they weren't welcome. Any ideas?
Pretty obvious why insurance ads and political photo shoots etc include a mixture of colours in the people depicted. It's to show they welcome everybody. Can't imagine why blacks or Asians would ever think they weren't welcome. Any ideas?
sp1814
/// The idea of tokenism is one often levelled at black people (actors in this thread), which is quite insulting, because it assumes that they are in some way there for the reason of their skin colour and nothing else. ///
/// To create parts which are specifically designed to be played by black actors is no more patronising than creating roles specifically to be played by actresses. TV and film directors want to reflect real life - and real life isn't monochrome. ///
This thread is not about placing black actors in parts specifically designed for black actors, it is about placing black actors in the cast purely for political correctness purposes.
As regards "reflecting real life" that you refer to, there are villages in England, that are inhabited by the same white families who have lived there for generation after generation, and even a white person from another area is looked down upon, so if a TV drama/soap was set in such a village, why should a black person be placed in that village, if not for in a purely token gesture?
/// The idea of tokenism is one often levelled at black people (actors in this thread), which is quite insulting, because it assumes that they are in some way there for the reason of their skin colour and nothing else. ///
/// To create parts which are specifically designed to be played by black actors is no more patronising than creating roles specifically to be played by actresses. TV and film directors want to reflect real life - and real life isn't monochrome. ///
This thread is not about placing black actors in parts specifically designed for black actors, it is about placing black actors in the cast purely for political correctness purposes.
As regards "reflecting real life" that you refer to, there are villages in England, that are inhabited by the same white families who have lived there for generation after generation, and even a white person from another area is looked down upon, so if a TV drama/soap was set in such a village, why should a black person be placed in that village, if not for in a purely token gesture?
sp1814
/// When asked if the default for all film and tv should be white Anglo Saxon, you said 'Yes, in a predominantly white Anglo Saxon country such as this...'///
/// That seems an odd thing to write, because it suggests that producers and directors default to employing white actors, giving them an advantage in casting over equally talented black actors. ///
No that is the way you yourself are interpreting it. in a predominantly white Anglo Saxon country such as this, it is obviously that more white actors are going to be cast in roles than blacks, just as one would expect there to be more female actors set in a female environment such as The Bletchley Circle, Land Girls Prisoner, Cell Block H. and the latest Wentworth Prison.
/// Shouldn't producers and casting directors simply choose who is best for the role? ///
Most certainly but casing a white actor as Martin Luther King simply because he was a good actor or a Black actor in the role as Sherlock Holmes for similar reasons would be just plain silly.
/// When asked if the default for all film and tv should be white Anglo Saxon, you said 'Yes, in a predominantly white Anglo Saxon country such as this...'///
/// That seems an odd thing to write, because it suggests that producers and directors default to employing white actors, giving them an advantage in casting over equally talented black actors. ///
No that is the way you yourself are interpreting it. in a predominantly white Anglo Saxon country such as this, it is obviously that more white actors are going to be cast in roles than blacks, just as one would expect there to be more female actors set in a female environment such as The Bletchley Circle, Land Girls Prisoner, Cell Block H. and the latest Wentworth Prison.
/// Shouldn't producers and casting directors simply choose who is best for the role? ///
Most certainly but casing a white actor as Martin Luther King simply because he was a good actor or a Black actor in the role as Sherlock Holmes for similar reasons would be just plain silly.
sp1814
/// By the way - casting a black actor to play an American jazz singer in the 1920s? ///
/// Doesn't seem to be that controversial if you ask me. However the moment I saw the trailer for the new series! I knew how the Daily Mail brigade would react. ///
And in which way has the Daily Mail reacted, this isn't about the soul black actor in Downton Abbey it is a report on what Julian Fellows thoughts were regarding more black role models on television.
/// I was bang on the money. ///
No you were not, in fact you gave out more monery than was called for.
Incidentally there is no problem whatever regarding the black actor who plays the jazz singer in Downton Abbey, the present series is set in the 20s when black jazz was very popular, in fact this character is loosely connected with a black entertainer of the 20s 30s and 40s a great entertainer called Leslie Hutchinson better known as 'Hutch'.
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/// By the way - casting a black actor to play an American jazz singer in the 1920s? ///
/// Doesn't seem to be that controversial if you ask me. However the moment I saw the trailer for the new series! I knew how the Daily Mail brigade would react. ///
And in which way has the Daily Mail reacted, this isn't about the soul black actor in Downton Abbey it is a report on what Julian Fellows thoughts were regarding more black role models on television.
/// I was bang on the money. ///
No you were not, in fact you gave out more monery than was called for.
Incidentally there is no problem whatever regarding the black actor who plays the jazz singer in Downton Abbey, the present series is set in the 20s when black jazz was very popular, in fact this character is loosely connected with a black entertainer of the 20s 30s and 40s a great entertainer called Leslie Hutchinson better known as 'Hutch'.
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AOG
Okay...here's the thing.
Why do you think black actors are assigned roles to serve political correctness.
I have just had to re-word this post, because people like you...umm...bother me.
I've been promoted twice in the past couple of years and lead a European and India team, which means that I generally start work at 06:00 and finish when I go to bed. I also work most weekends.
Now, I bet you that there are people who look at me and mutter 'tokenism', 'political correctness'.
The truth is - there are very few present day dramas where black and Asian faces would be out of place.
Anything set in a city would look odd with an all white cast. However, it would be weird for Lark Rise to Candleford, Cranford or Pride and Prejudice to feature non-white cast members.
And regarding the all white villages you refer to...yes they exist. But so do villages that have a black people.
Why shouldn't producers reflect those stories?
Are there any real benefits from an all white cast?
Okay...here's the thing.
Why do you think black actors are assigned roles to serve political correctness.
I have just had to re-word this post, because people like you...umm...bother me.
I've been promoted twice in the past couple of years and lead a European and India team, which means that I generally start work at 06:00 and finish when I go to bed. I also work most weekends.
Now, I bet you that there are people who look at me and mutter 'tokenism', 'political correctness'.
The truth is - there are very few present day dramas where black and Asian faces would be out of place.
Anything set in a city would look odd with an all white cast. However, it would be weird for Lark Rise to Candleford, Cranford or Pride and Prejudice to feature non-white cast members.
And regarding the all white villages you refer to...yes they exist. But so do villages that have a black people.
Why shouldn't producers reflect those stories?
Are there any real benefits from an all white cast?
AOG
Another stunning error.
You wrote:
"so if a TV drama/soap was set in such a village, why should a black person be placed in that village, if not for in a purely token gesture?"
I don't know if you were aware of this...but tv dramas are not set in real villages.
Documentaries are.
Your thinking is way off beam.
Another stunning error.
You wrote:
"so if a TV drama/soap was set in such a village, why should a black person be placed in that village, if not for in a purely token gesture?"
I don't know if you were aware of this...but tv dramas are not set in real villages.
Documentaries are.
Your thinking is way off beam.
AOG
You wrote:
"No that is the way you yourself are interpreting it. in a predominantly white Anglo Saxon country such as this, it is obviously that more white actors are going to be cast in roles than blacks, just as one would expect there to be more female actors set in a female environment such as The Bletchley Circle, Land Girls Prisoner, Cell Block H. and the latest Wentworth Prison."
Yes...more white actors are going to be cast than black actors...
The point is that there should be more opportunities for our talented black and Asian actors here in the UK...because what happens, is that we lose them to the US who are streets ahead of us in terms of casting.
I think we might be agreeing on this - most roles will go to white actors.
Full stop.
However, that doesn't mean that writers, producers and casting directors cannot be encouraged to consider black actors in suitable roles.
You wrote:
"No that is the way you yourself are interpreting it. in a predominantly white Anglo Saxon country such as this, it is obviously that more white actors are going to be cast in roles than blacks, just as one would expect there to be more female actors set in a female environment such as The Bletchley Circle, Land Girls Prisoner, Cell Block H. and the latest Wentworth Prison."
Yes...more white actors are going to be cast than black actors...
The point is that there should be more opportunities for our talented black and Asian actors here in the UK...because what happens, is that we lose them to the US who are streets ahead of us in terms of casting.
I think we might be agreeing on this - most roles will go to white actors.
Full stop.
However, that doesn't mean that writers, producers and casting directors cannot be encouraged to consider black actors in suitable roles.
sp1814
/// I have just had to re-word this post, because people like you...umm...bother me. ///
And how would that be then? is it just people who are not afraid to tell it as it is that bothers you, and can you see a little of that protective seal that surround such as you, crumbling away?
/// I've been promoted twice in the past couple of years and lead a European and India team, which means that I generally start work at 06:00 and finish when I go to bed. I also work most weekends. ///
Good for you, but it seems strange how you can afford to spend the vast amount of time that you spend on this web site, if you have the busy work load that you say you have.
My excuse is "I am retired".
/// Anything set in a city would look odd with an all white cast. However, it would be weird for Lark Rise to Candleford, Cranford or Pride and Prejudice to feature non-white cast members. ///
Ah now although I am sure you didn't really want to do, but you have, and that is outlined the whole point I am getting at.
"it would be weird for Lark Rise to Candleford, Cranford or Pride and Prejudice to feature non-white cast members".
Precisely but the way things are going it may not be unusual to invent a black character so as to fit in the 'Token black' PC scenario.
Even if it the character happened to be a servant etc they were around you know even in those days, but then maybe not because then there would be cries of generalising and type casting, but it would be difficult seeing I can't remember any Lords or black squires etc.
/// I have just had to re-word this post, because people like you...umm...bother me. ///
And how would that be then? is it just people who are not afraid to tell it as it is that bothers you, and can you see a little of that protective seal that surround such as you, crumbling away?
/// I've been promoted twice in the past couple of years and lead a European and India team, which means that I generally start work at 06:00 and finish when I go to bed. I also work most weekends. ///
Good for you, but it seems strange how you can afford to spend the vast amount of time that you spend on this web site, if you have the busy work load that you say you have.
My excuse is "I am retired".
/// Anything set in a city would look odd with an all white cast. However, it would be weird for Lark Rise to Candleford, Cranford or Pride and Prejudice to feature non-white cast members. ///
Ah now although I am sure you didn't really want to do, but you have, and that is outlined the whole point I am getting at.
"it would be weird for Lark Rise to Candleford, Cranford or Pride and Prejudice to feature non-white cast members".
Precisely but the way things are going it may not be unusual to invent a black character so as to fit in the 'Token black' PC scenario.
Even if it the character happened to be a servant etc they were around you know even in those days, but then maybe not because then there would be cries of generalising and type casting, but it would be difficult seeing I can't remember any Lords or black squires etc.
sp1814
You accuse me of making stunning errprs when it is yourself who is making all the errors.
/// I don't know if you were aware of this...but tv dramas are not set in real villages. ///
I was just using the example where there are such villages to highlight the fact that it would not be out of place to set a drama in such a village, ie absent of blacks.
You accuse me of making stunning errprs when it is yourself who is making all the errors.
/// I don't know if you were aware of this...but tv dramas are not set in real villages. ///
I was just using the example where there are such villages to highlight the fact that it would not be out of place to set a drama in such a village, ie absent of blacks.
But this tokenism is rife all over the media, notice who many female sports presenters there are now, weather girls in abundance, and a mix of Asian and Black news presenters etc, etc. especially on the BBC.
You should get out a wee bit more ANOTHEOLDGIT, there are folk out and about who are not white or male walking around out there! Honestly, I'm not telling porkies!
You should get out a wee bit more ANOTHEOLDGIT, there are folk out and about who are not white or male walking around out there! Honestly, I'm not telling porkies!
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