ChatterBank3 mins ago
12 Year A Slave, Do We Need Such Films?
130 Answers
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/// McQueen's film pitilessly documents the beatings, lynchings, rape and brutality of a slave-owning class half-demented by its own moral corruption, and routinely reduces audiences to tears. "I hadn't realised slavery was that bad," is the comment its director keeps hearing. ///
McQueen admits that he didn't realise slavery was so bad, so does it do any good for racial harmony to constantly remind people of man's inhumanity to others that which happened nearly 200 years ago?
/// "There's been a kind of amnesia," he says, "or not wanting to focus on this, because of it being so painful. It's kind of crazy. We can deal with the second world war and the Holocaust and so forth and what not, but this side of history, maybe because it was so hideous, people just do not want to see. People do not want to engage." ///
What is he saying that WW2 and the holocaust was also not as hideous also, what about the slaves that the Nazis used or those that the Japanese used to build their railways etc?
Just as we see less films made of these inhumane historic events these days in an attempt not to cause offence or ill feelings, to the present day Germans and Japanese, perhaps now we should do the same with other similar matters which happened further down in history?
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/// McQueen's film pitilessly documents the beatings, lynchings, rape and brutality of a slave-owning class half-demented by its own moral corruption, and routinely reduces audiences to tears. "I hadn't realised slavery was that bad," is the comment its director keeps hearing. ///
McQueen admits that he didn't realise slavery was so bad, so does it do any good for racial harmony to constantly remind people of man's inhumanity to others that which happened nearly 200 years ago?
/// "There's been a kind of amnesia," he says, "or not wanting to focus on this, because of it being so painful. It's kind of crazy. We can deal with the second world war and the Holocaust and so forth and what not, but this side of history, maybe because it was so hideous, people just do not want to see. People do not want to engage." ///
What is he saying that WW2 and the holocaust was also not as hideous also, what about the slaves that the Nazis used or those that the Japanese used to build their railways etc?
Just as we see less films made of these inhumane historic events these days in an attempt not to cause offence or ill feelings, to the present day Germans and Japanese, perhaps now we should do the same with other similar matters which happened further down in history?
Answers
Slavery did not begin and end with the Africans in America, it has gone on (and still does!) since the history of mankind. It is unspeakably bad, but we should not feel that we have to bear any particular historical burden of guilt, more than anyone else. Africa has always been a mine for Arab slave traders, not only westward, but eastward too. The Turks...
13:28 Sat 04th Jan 2014
@AoG You managed to derail your own thread and reduce yourself to defending the indefensible once again, AoG. The only person who could imagine that such a spectacular own goal meant that you had "won the argument" would be, ermm, you.
Far better than resorting to pedantry in an effort to deny the obvious would have to been to acknowledge the point and move on. You chose, as you sometimes do, to engage in an exercise in futility and the denial of reality by stubbornly insisting that 2 threads you had created about the same film were somehow different, along the way offering insult to others - and then whining when others offer insult in return!
Far better than resorting to pedantry in an effort to deny the obvious would have to been to acknowledge the point and move on. You chose, as you sometimes do, to engage in an exercise in futility and the denial of reality by stubbornly insisting that 2 threads you had created about the same film were somehow different, along the way offering insult to others - and then whining when others offer insult in return!
I have to say, for the first time I can ever remember on Answerbank, I am sympathetic to one of AOG's questions (although I suspect for quite different reasons).
This film was justified by its makers on the grounds that it reveals 'hidden' corners of the past that would otherwise go undiscussed. But that's not true. Slavery is on most (if not all) school curriculums in the United States, and has featured every discussion of United States social history since 'Roots' came out in the 1970s.
If people want to see '12 Years...', fine. But I do question the automatic, knee-jerk repetition of the old "those who forget the past..." mantra especially considering that there are plenty of dark corners in history with just as much relevance to the modern world as slavery that go completely ignored in the UK, USA and their respective film industries.
This film was justified by its makers on the grounds that it reveals 'hidden' corners of the past that would otherwise go undiscussed. But that's not true. Slavery is on most (if not all) school curriculums in the United States, and has featured every discussion of United States social history since 'Roots' came out in the 1970s.
If people want to see '12 Years...', fine. But I do question the automatic, knee-jerk repetition of the old "those who forget the past..." mantra especially considering that there are plenty of dark corners in history with just as much relevance to the modern world as slavery that go completely ignored in the UK, USA and their respective film industries.
As Khandro said North Africans used to raid Europe as far as Ireland on their slaving expeditions but don't expect any apologies from Algeria or Morocco. A lot of the Nazi war effort was powered by slaves and slavery still exists in China and Africa with slave soldiers in the various militia groups.
Perhaps a film about real and ongoing slavery would make people realise that it isn't a thing of the past and the UN could increase it's credibility by doing something about it
Perhaps a film about real and ongoing slavery would make people realise that it isn't a thing of the past and the UN could increase it's credibility by doing something about it
References to Slavery
Contemporary
Africa · Bangladesh · China · Ethiopia · Europe · Haiti · India · Mali · Mauritania · Niger · Pakistan · Sudan · United States
Types
Bride-buying · Child labour · Debt bondage · Human trafficking · Impressment · Peonage · Penal labour · Sexual slavery · Wage slavery · Zwangsarbeit
Historic
History · Antiquity · Aztec · Ancient Greece · Ancient Rome · Medieval Europe · Thrall · Kholop · Serfdom · Slave ship · Slave raiding · Blackbirding · Galley slave · Panyarring
By country or region
Africa · Atlantic · Arab · Barbary · Spanish New World · Angola · Bhutan · Brazil · the British Isles · British Virgin Islands · Canada · China · Ethiopia · Germany · Haiti · India · Iran · Japan · Libya · Ottoman Empire · Portugal · Romania · Seychelles · Somalia · South Africa · Sweden · United States
Religion
Bible · Christianity · Islam · Judaism
There's been a lot of it about!
Contemporary
Africa · Bangladesh · China · Ethiopia · Europe · Haiti · India · Mali · Mauritania · Niger · Pakistan · Sudan · United States
Types
Bride-buying · Child labour · Debt bondage · Human trafficking · Impressment · Peonage · Penal labour · Sexual slavery · Wage slavery · Zwangsarbeit
Historic
History · Antiquity · Aztec · Ancient Greece · Ancient Rome · Medieval Europe · Thrall · Kholop · Serfdom · Slave ship · Slave raiding · Blackbirding · Galley slave · Panyarring
By country or region
Africa · Atlantic · Arab · Barbary · Spanish New World · Angola · Bhutan · Brazil · the British Isles · British Virgin Islands · Canada · China · Ethiopia · Germany · Haiti · India · Iran · Japan · Libya · Ottoman Empire · Portugal · Romania · Seychelles · Somalia · South Africa · Sweden · United States
Religion
Bible · Christianity · Islam · Judaism
There's been a lot of it about!
^^
True enough
But Solomon Northup's autobiography is a unique testament and it is strange that it isn't better known or been dramatised before.
If Anne Frank's Diaries were being dramatised and brought to prominence or the first time, would many people be criticising it on the basis that 'we've seen all this Holocaust stuff before'?
True enough
But Solomon Northup's autobiography is a unique testament and it is strange that it isn't better known or been dramatised before.
If Anne Frank's Diaries were being dramatised and brought to prominence or the first time, would many people be criticising it on the basis that 'we've seen all this Holocaust stuff before'?
"If Anne Frank's Diaries were being dramatised and brought to prominence or the first time, would many people be criticising it on the basis that 'we've seen all this Holocaust stuff before'?"
A good point. Does there have to be one -and only one- piece of entertainment about a particular issue? Is making more than one film about a particular issue "rubbing our noses in it?"
There are indeed many other instances of slavery in one form or another around the globe and perhaps it would be good if more attention were paid to it, but that does not mean that this film is not itself worthy of watching, that its message is not relevant surely?
A good point. Does there have to be one -and only one- piece of entertainment about a particular issue? Is making more than one film about a particular issue "rubbing our noses in it?"
There are indeed many other instances of slavery in one form or another around the globe and perhaps it would be good if more attention were paid to it, but that does not mean that this film is not itself worthy of watching, that its message is not relevant surely?
"Does there have to be one -and only one- piece of entertainment about a particular issue? Is making more than one film about a particular issue "rubbing our noses in it?""
Of course not. But 12YAS has been justified by the director on the grounds that it is starting a discussion about slavery that wouldn't be happening otherwise. Likewise, with the holocaust, there's doubtless still some engaging stories to be told from that era. But I don't think they could possibly be justified on the grounds of 'awareness-raising' or 'not forgetting.'
Of course not. But 12YAS has been justified by the director on the grounds that it is starting a discussion about slavery that wouldn't be happening otherwise. Likewise, with the holocaust, there's doubtless still some engaging stories to be told from that era. But I don't think they could possibly be justified on the grounds of 'awareness-raising' or 'not forgetting.'
Kromo
You're probably right...
but would miss out on an interesting and valid aspect of the subject
the OP does presume that
/we see less films made of these inhumane historic events (Holocaust & Japanes prison camps) these days in an attempt not to cause offence or ill feelings, to the present day Germans and Japanese/
which I seriously doubt
They remain powerful stimuli for story telling
and I see no evidence that protecting German or Japanese feelings is a high priority.
(indeed, one of our freelance (and resting actor) employees is filming in something soon as a 'nasty Nazi')
Overall, if a story has someting truthful and valid to say - why not?
Who sets the limit for the 'this subject matter now Full' sign?
You're probably right...
but would miss out on an interesting and valid aspect of the subject
the OP does presume that
/we see less films made of these inhumane historic events (Holocaust & Japanes prison camps) these days in an attempt not to cause offence or ill feelings, to the present day Germans and Japanese/
which I seriously doubt
They remain powerful stimuli for story telling
and I see no evidence that protecting German or Japanese feelings is a high priority.
(indeed, one of our freelance (and resting actor) employees is filming in something soon as a 'nasty Nazi')
Overall, if a story has someting truthful and valid to say - why not?
Who sets the limit for the 'this subject matter now Full' sign?
"But 12YAS has been justified by the director on the grounds that it is starting a discussion about slavery that wouldn't be happening otherwise."
Has it? To me that sounds more like a director "bigging up" the product, but I would not know, not having followed the news or listened to the views of the director.
It is a good story though, by all accounts, and based upon a real life happening, as well as documenting mans brutality to man. So - entertaining, perhaps thought provoking and educational too. These all seem worthwhile to me, and certainly no reason to question the "need" for such a film.
I had not planned to go and see this movie. All this talk and I think I will now - its whetted my appetite! :)
Has it? To me that sounds more like a director "bigging up" the product, but I would not know, not having followed the news or listened to the views of the director.
It is a good story though, by all accounts, and based upon a real life happening, as well as documenting mans brutality to man. So - entertaining, perhaps thought provoking and educational too. These all seem worthwhile to me, and certainly no reason to question the "need" for such a film.
I had not planned to go and see this movie. All this talk and I think I will now - its whetted my appetite! :)
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