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Not Against The Law In Arizona To Be A Bigot Apparently
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When will Americans realise that you don't give someone freedom by taking it away from somebody else ?
When will Americans realise that you don't give someone freedom by taking it away from somebody else ?
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"However unacceptable to you it may seem, some people are highly driven by the requirements of their religion. It is no more “fair” to force them to deny their faith than it is to force gay people to go straight."
I really do not see how it is that you do not get this. Some of the religious, through learned rote and belief, wish to discriminate against those of a different gender orientation, in this particular instance. They are perfectly at liberty, in the privacy of their own home, church, community or whatever to hold those views; But where those views essentially mean discriminating against members of the public by virtue of their sexuality/creed whatever the hell else their holy book tells them, thats where the line should be drawn. We live in secular, multi-faith democracies, where you are free to practice/believe whatever the hell you want, so long as you do not discriminate against someone else.
And religious tenets, no matter how deeply held, are learnt, interpreted, and debated even between members of the same faith;whereas someones sexuality or race is not, it is something they are borne with.
And if we allow christian fundamentalists to discriminate against gays, for instance, that means we open the door to muslim fundamentalists discriminating against- well, pretty much anyone not muslim - basically. None of you supporting this development in Arizona have even bothered to address that issue. How many of you whine about "Sharia Law" being introduced into the UK, unyet in the same breath mutter approvingly about another religious sect being allowed to discriminate because of their beliefs.
It is nonsensical; it is regressive; and it is a licence for sanctioned bigotry.
I really do not see how it is that you do not get this. Some of the religious, through learned rote and belief, wish to discriminate against those of a different gender orientation, in this particular instance. They are perfectly at liberty, in the privacy of their own home, church, community or whatever to hold those views; But where those views essentially mean discriminating against members of the public by virtue of their sexuality/creed whatever the hell else their holy book tells them, thats where the line should be drawn. We live in secular, multi-faith democracies, where you are free to practice/believe whatever the hell you want, so long as you do not discriminate against someone else.
And religious tenets, no matter how deeply held, are learnt, interpreted, and debated even between members of the same faith;whereas someones sexuality or race is not, it is something they are borne with.
And if we allow christian fundamentalists to discriminate against gays, for instance, that means we open the door to muslim fundamentalists discriminating against- well, pretty much anyone not muslim - basically. None of you supporting this development in Arizona have even bothered to address that issue. How many of you whine about "Sharia Law" being introduced into the UK, unyet in the same breath mutter approvingly about another religious sect being allowed to discriminate because of their beliefs.
It is nonsensical; it is regressive; and it is a licence for sanctioned bigotry.
Again LG, all logical and common sense to me.
If this law goes ahead, it will justify bigotry. Stupid people have indeed, the right to be bigoted in the privacy of their own homes, in exactly the same way that they have the right to be racist. But I still cannot understand how people on here today can think that is acceptable for this kind of bigotry to be enshrined in law. Its a backwards step. We should rise above this sort of thing these days.
Thank goodness we live in Britain !
If this law goes ahead, it will justify bigotry. Stupid people have indeed, the right to be bigoted in the privacy of their own homes, in exactly the same way that they have the right to be racist. But I still cannot understand how people on here today can think that is acceptable for this kind of bigotry to be enshrined in law. Its a backwards step. We should rise above this sort of thing these days.
Thank goodness we live in Britain !
New Judge
You wrote:
Your argument, LG, could be applied equally in reverse. It simply suits you to suggest that the rights of gay people are greater than those of religious people and so those with whom you disagree are conveniently labelled "bigots".
But they are.
They're using religion as an excuse. Is there anywhere in the Bible which states that gay people should be refused service at restaurant? Or in florists? Or cinemas?
No.
This is a disgraceful, utterly repulsive piece of legislation designed as a sop to religious fanatics who are doing their best to marginalise gay people.
I can understand their extremism - they can't help it. It's the way they were brought up.
It's the cowardly apologists who annoy me more, with their talk of accepting bigotry.
Incidentally, not all Muslims and Christians are vehemently anti-gay. It's cobblers to assume that they all are. It's just the fundamentalists amongst them that shout the loudest.
You wrote:
Your argument, LG, could be applied equally in reverse. It simply suits you to suggest that the rights of gay people are greater than those of religious people and so those with whom you disagree are conveniently labelled "bigots".
But they are.
They're using religion as an excuse. Is there anywhere in the Bible which states that gay people should be refused service at restaurant? Or in florists? Or cinemas?
No.
This is a disgraceful, utterly repulsive piece of legislation designed as a sop to religious fanatics who are doing their best to marginalise gay people.
I can understand their extremism - they can't help it. It's the way they were brought up.
It's the cowardly apologists who annoy me more, with their talk of accepting bigotry.
Incidentally, not all Muslims and Christians are vehemently anti-gay. It's cobblers to assume that they all are. It's just the fundamentalists amongst them that shout the loudest.
New Judge
With regard to Muslims refusing to stock or sell alcohol.
Some do, but the difference is, they are not discriminating against anyone. If they were refusing to sell products (any products) to a specific group, that would be different.
You went on to say:
"But at the same time it satisfies the needs of those who find homosexuality unacceptable. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to a tricky problem."
Satisfies what need?
I don't understand what religious edicts demand that followers must disassociate themselves from sections of society.
And I feel that this is an odd statement:
"In this particular case the restriction on unfettered rights of gay people to demand goods and services will impinge on the rights of religious people to adhere to their religion."
How would (say) selling the latest Stephen King novel somehow restrict a Christian bookseller's right to practice his faith?
How would a Muslim bank teller be compromised by cashing a cheque for a lesbian?
It...makes...no...sense...
With regard to Muslims refusing to stock or sell alcohol.
Some do, but the difference is, they are not discriminating against anyone. If they were refusing to sell products (any products) to a specific group, that would be different.
You went on to say:
"But at the same time it satisfies the needs of those who find homosexuality unacceptable. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to a tricky problem."
Satisfies what need?
I don't understand what religious edicts demand that followers must disassociate themselves from sections of society.
And I feel that this is an odd statement:
"In this particular case the restriction on unfettered rights of gay people to demand goods and services will impinge on the rights of religious people to adhere to their religion."
How would (say) selling the latest Stephen King novel somehow restrict a Christian bookseller's right to practice his faith?
How would a Muslim bank teller be compromised by cashing a cheque for a lesbian?
It...makes...no...sense...
How would a muslim be compromised by handling a bottle containing alcoholic drink.? apparently they are, though the koran does not forbid the drinking of alcohol and does not forbid touching it. Glass is impermeable to alcohol by the way. Any attempt at rational argument on this topic quickly becomes very silly.
jomifl
Some Muslims, but by no means all, refuse to touch alcohol or pork products.
The key point is that it is 'some'.
We have a deli run by a Muslim family near us, and they are quite happy to sell pork products, but don't eat them themselves. Just like the owners of a Turkish restaurant that we sometimes go to - they sell alcohol, but they are (mostly) teetotal.
Some Muslims, but by no means all, refuse to touch alcohol or pork products.
The key point is that it is 'some'.
We have a deli run by a Muslim family near us, and they are quite happy to sell pork products, but don't eat them themselves. Just like the owners of a Turkish restaurant that we sometimes go to - they sell alcohol, but they are (mostly) teetotal.
It is also the choice of everybody to avoid things that which they find abhorrent even if that abhorrence is irrational and based on a religious prejudice. Just as many muslims have had no choice in being muslim and adopting the primitive prejudices of that religion so have many christians been brainwashed in a similar way. A bit of tolerance might be in order.
But what religious edicts demand that taxi drivers should have the right to chuck gays and lesbians out of their cabs?
I don't know the Koran, but as far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the Bible that states that Christians are prevented from entering commercial transactions with gay people.
So what religious freedoms are being satisfied by this law?
I don't know the Koran, but as far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the Bible that states that Christians are prevented from entering commercial transactions with gay people.
So what religious freedoms are being satisfied by this law?
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