Should The Children Of Islamic Radicals Be Taken Into Care?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2571818/Children-Islamist-radicals-care-suggests-Boris-Mayor-London-warns-hundreds-risk-turned-fanatics-extreme-parents.html

One may not particularly like Boris or his politics, but can anyone disagree with him over this?

[emmie]

no, they should be housed with members of their families.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// Even by Mr Johnson's hair-brained tendencies, this is one of the mosy ludicrous, and simultaneously sinister ideas I have ever heard! ///

Once again Andy you are letting your political leanings get in the way of discussing matters in a none personal way, there was no need whatsoever to label him with having "hair-brained tendencies" just because you personally oppose his suggestions.

/// George Orwell told of a fatalistic future with his nightmare of The Thought Police - and Mr Johnson wishes to make it a reality. ///

This has nothing at all to do with George Orwell or even "Thought Police".

/// You cannot remove children from their parents on the basis that they 'might be radicalised'. How on earth is anyone supposed to measure a nebulous concept like that? ///

So therefore you also do not believe that the authorities should not remove children from known drug addicts in case they also became addicted?

/// Where do we stop? Should we remove children from 'country people' in case they grow up to indulge in blood sports? ///

That is rather a silly analogy to come from you Andy, how can animal blood sports be compared with the teachings of mass terrorism?

/// Do we remove children from all Jehovah's Witnesses in case they ever need, and are denied medical attention? ///

Not in case they may need just medical treatment, because this can cover many things, but if a child was at risk from a life threatening illness, I am sure that if known to the authorities they would soon step in to make sure that child received treatment.

/// The whole idea smacks of blatant Nazi ideology - the idea of constructing a society on the basis of what people 'may' or 'may not' say or do in their own homes. ///

Once again you are being somewhat hysterical in attaching what Boris said to Nazi ideology.

/// Mr Johnson should be ashamed of himself for pontificating such arrant nonsense. ///

One could;d apply the same to Mr Hughes perhaps, given the other side of politics?

/// Perhaps he shouold ponder the removal of his own children lest they be 'radicalised' into being right-wing crackpots when they grow up - after following his example. ///

Try and stick to giving a personal opposite point of view if you must, without this constant need of yours for rather petty name calling ie "right-wing crackpots"

[emmie]

Tommy Robinson stood down from leadership of the EDL a while ago, and he is not in jail for his views but fraud. So don't think it applies.

[emmie]

i agree with China Doll, i am wholly against religion being part of any school, it should be up to the parents to sort that out, not a school.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// My father was an alcoholic wife-beater, I am neither, but under Mr Johnson's scheme, I should have been removed, in case I became as he
was ///

I am sorry to hear that you had such an unpleasant upbringing Andy, but unfortunate as it was for you, that has nothing to do with what Boris is suggesting.

Was your father constantly indoctrinating you into the finer arts of drinking and wife beating? I suspect not, so your analogy doesn't work, unless it could be said that perhaps you 'should' have been removed from the danger of an alcoholic wife beater..

[Zeuhl]

According to the police reports, Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale were both affected psychologically by their upbringings in fundamentalist Christian homes.

Perhaps children should be rescued from ALL these environments where they are indoctrinated with such irrational and superstitious nonsense

[ummmm]

Where are we going to put all these children?

[Zeuhl]

And how are we going to employ all the Social Workers?

[anotheoldgit]

Gromit

/// The murderer of Lee Rigby was brought up by strict Christians not muslims. I fear as usual, Boris is a bit muddled. ///

I don't think that Boris would deny that, so in this instance he isn't even a bit muddled as you suggest.

The murderer of Lee Rigby although brought up by strict Christian parents, there would have been no reason to remove him as a child, as he got his savage indoctrinating from another source, but perhaps there could have been an excuse for the removal of his children, since he was know to have radical feelings way before he murdered Lee Rigby.

/// Tommy Robinson is currently languishing in jail. Should we go to his house and round up his three kids? ///

Has he murdered anyone, or took part in any terrorists actions, please tell me because I can never remember him doing so?

[emmie]

Adeboloja didn't kill Lee Rigby because of his own upbringing but because he was a soldier of Allah, so his Christian upbringing had nothing to do with it. otherwise he would have said he was a soldier of Christ. Not to forget he leaves 6 children, i wonder how they will view their fathers actions in years to come.

[emmie]

how will it be all? are you expecting more to come out the woodwork, not sure how many terrorists, terror suspects in jail in UK. Social workers are overworked at any rate, they always have been and likely always will be. Going on the various people i have had to deal with on behalf of others, they burn out, fall by the wayside and are sometimes simply inadequate to the tasks.

[Zeuhl]

/Has he murdered anyone, or took part in any terrorists actions/

So was Boris suggesting only the removal of children with parents in the above category?

That's even sillier; social services would already be assessing those situations

'Murderers and convicted terrorists' or 'Islamic radicals'

Has aog attempted a rather careless bit of 'goalpost shifting'?

Or is his muddled state just evidence of how this hare-brained idea would fail at the first fence; definitions - let alone evidence and legal process.

[emmie]

AOG already covered that part about Tommy Robinson, if you look

[andy-hughes]

AOG - "The murderer of Lee Rigby although brought up by strict Christian parents, there would have been no reason to remove him as a child, as he got his savage indoctrinating from another source, but perhaps there could have been an excuse for the removal of his children, since he was know to have radical feelings way before he murdered Lee Rigby."

That rather illustrates the flaw in Mr Johnson's plan doesn't it?

One of the most savage acts carried out in the name of Muslim extemeism was carried out by a man with a Christian upbringing - much good it did him it seems.

But, as you point out, his radicalisation came from elsewhere.

So we have something of a problem.

Do we remove children from people judged to be extremists - as Boris Johnson suggests?

Or do we leave those with devout Chrisitan parents, but take steps to ensure that they don't mix with anyone outside their family who may influence them in extremist views?

How exactly is this to be monitored and judged?

The point of my disagreement is apart from being a sinister notion, the entire concept is utterly unworkable.

Who decides who is radical? Who takes away these children? Who funds the legal defence against lawsuits brought bt parents against the state? Where do these children go? Who feeds, clothes and educates them? How can you argue that radicalism is wrong, when the action of removing children from their families is about as radical as you can get?

The more you think about this idea, the more of a nonsense it clerly proves to be.

Mr Johnson is making newsworthy soundbites with no sound basis or backing - a typical politician in other words.

[emmie]

i am not sure Adeboloja lived with his children, more likely the children live with the 3 mothers

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2571671/We-wont-come-say-couple-fled-stop-social-workers-snatching-baby-Judge-lifts-absurd-ban-IDs.html

It would seem that this sort of thing has already taken place and the parents have fled the UK and gone to Cyprus.

So perhaps Boris's suggestion can't be all bad, especially if those radical parents do the same as this couple and left the country, at least we will have got rid of them from these shores.

[sp1814]

AOG


Would we limit it to the children of convicted terrorists? Or spread the net wider to those who have been convicted of encouraging terrorism? Or wider still, and include those who follow strict religious doctrines which we strongly disagree with?

And should we only target Muslims?

[sp1814]

But the big problem with this idea is - how would the authorities monitor the parents?

Social services are called when children show signs of physical or psychological abuse, but how would radicalism be detected? And furthermore, how could the authorities determine where the radicalism came from?