Israel - The Jewish Homland

[Gromit]

// David Cameron will arrive in Israel on Wednesday under pressure to acknowledge the country as the Jewish homeland.
Groups representing some British Jews hope Mr Cameron will acknowledge Israel’s status as the world’s only Jewish state on his first visit to the country in office. //

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10691157/British-voters-hope-Cameron-acknowledges-Jewish-state-on-Israel-trip.html

1. Haven't we already done this?
2. Didn't the UN mandate, which Britain agreed to, acknowledge the State of Isreal?
3. Isn't this a bit humiliating. Smacks of making us jump throuh hoops.
4. Should Israel first apologise for the deaths of British personel when it took up an armed conflict against us?
5. Is this some kind of trap to make an agreement withe the Palestinians even harder to accomplish? Are they asking us to do this, to take sides in that conflict?

[jomifl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holocaust_memorials_and_museums

Rather more than all the other persecuted people put together, A trifle disproportionate perhaps?

[emmie]

if you think so, i wonder how many memorials exist across Britain, and in other parts of the world to British dead, in wars down the centuries.

[jomifl]

I wonder how many memorials there are in Israel to all those who died defeating the Nazis.

[emmie]

no idea, but this level of animosity doesn't suit

[jomifl]

I isn't animosity emmie but refusal to submit to moral blackmail and bullying. After all Israel has nothing to be proud of..

[Clanad]

Such as all of this jomfil?:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFroots.html

Granted, this is a Jewish supported site, but fact is, the footnotes and supporting data is undeniable, if one cares to set aside their bias and check actual historically verifiable data. To do so is horrific...

All those defeating the Nazis were brave, but well armed warriors, no? They are memorialized throughout the world, as they should be. But, the photos of mainly women and children being herded like sheep onto railway cars by Nazi soldiers should still make people lose sleep trying to understand the inhumanity of it. That plus the fact that the terror went on for year after year.

I offer, had the Jews been any other group, the outcry would have been deafening. But you want to offer the Holocaust Memorial(s) as an excuse to bolster your position is ill advised at best and outright sophistry at worst!

Additionally, I hope I'm not the only one on this thread (deafening silence out there, with the exception of emmie[i ) that would like to know how you've been subjected to [i]moral blackmail and bullying] by Jewish people?

[sandyRoe]

Clanad, what was the fate of the majority of the natives in your country?

[jomifl]

Clanad, don't read more into my posts than is actually there, I am not a holocaust denier, I am just saying that the Jews aren't the only people that have ever been victimised. The nazis also victimised and slaughtered the Roma but where are their worldwide museums and memorials and where is the defening outcry? The moral blackmail is systemic, whenever anyone contradicts Israel they are accused of anti-semitism.
As for trying to understand inhumanity just look over the border into Israel..

[naomi24]

There’s no doubt Jews have purposefully set themselves apart from the rest of humanity, nor that Jewish business and politics wield an enormous influence on the rest of the world. I don’t think anyone is denying the holocaust, or undermining the horrific slaughter and inhumanity it resulted in, but Jom is right in saying the Jews weren’t the only victims, or that any criticism of Jews or Israel – even demonstrably justified criticism - is immediately deemed anti-Semitic. Outspoken critics seem to have arrived in a rather peculiar place these days. Political correctness has led to a penchant for demanding that any unsavoury truth be swept firmly under the carpet.

[jomifl]

Clanad, your link was interesting but only relevant if one accepts the premise that everyone has a right to live in the land of their ancestors (whatever that may be). I could probably walk to mine(of a thousand years ago) in a few weeks, but were would you go when the Native North Americans claim their land back? Shouldn't the Jews be in Egypt anyway?

[Clanad]

Obviously, the link I posted goes largely unread.

Fact is the Balfour Declaration, authored by an Englishman (Arthur James Balfour) by the way, "...specifically referred to “the historical connections of the Jewish people with Palestine” and to the moral validity of “reconstituting their National Home in that country.” The term “reconstituting” shows recognition of the fact that Palestine had been the Jews’ home. Furthermore, the British were instructed to “use their best endeavors to facilitate” Jewish immigration, to encourage settlement on the land and to “secure” the Jewish National Home. The word “Arab” does not appear in the Mandatory award.

The Mandate was formalized by the 52 governments at the League of Nations on July 24, 1922..."

The national motto for Israel contains two parts... "Zachor"(remembrance) and the phrase "Never Again" ...symbolizing the Jewish people’s collective resolve to never stand by the blood of their brethren and to never allow innocents to be brutalized for the crime of being Jewish. Yet it was only last week that a shipload of advanced rockets was intercepted by Israel... and the originator of that shipment also has a national motto "Wipe out Israel".

Another site says "...Holocaust remembrance has been a commitment that the Jewish community has consistently lived up to, but what of securing a safe Jewish future? What is the purpose of a moving memorial or museum, if not to serve as a stark reminder of what human beings are capable of and what is likely to occur if the guardians of moral justice are not vigilant in their duties?"
While mindful of a history of tragedy, Jews must not be defined by their victimhood but by the strength of their moral resolve. It is the Jewish ability to act as the vocal moral conscience of the world that will ensure that ‘Never Again’ is not just a slogan, but a universal clarion call to concrete action."

You can shift the discussion from the wished for total annhiliation of the Jews to the history of the Native Americans if you want... but keep in mind that for the first 200 years or so the dominant colonial power in the pre-US was England... so I'm not sure you want to go there.

Additionally, the total area of the Indian reservations in the U.S. is 55,700,000 acres or nearly 90,000 square miles... while the total area of Israel is 8,900 square miles. Still want to talk moral equivalency? I didn't think so...

I'm still trying to understand the term 'moral blackmail' as applied in this thread...

[jomifl]

Perhaps 'moral blackmail' was too complimentary..
You are absolutely correct Clanad most of your link did go unread by me, for the same reason I haven't read 'mein kampf' or any other ramblings by the posessed..
Glad to hear you (not Britain )have given the Native North Americans somewhere to live, I expect they benefit hugely from the abundant natural and mineral resources, I assume the term 'badlands' is ironic though.

[naomi24]

Clanad, a simple question. If the Jews did not claim to be God's chosen but were simply the descendants of people who once inhabited the area formerly known as Palestine, would you still unswervingly support their right to be there?

[Gromit]

// David Cameron will arrive in Israel on Wednesday under pressure to acknowledge the country as the Jewish homeland. //

// 1. Haven't we already done this? //

In his speech to the Knesset, Cameron assumed we already had acknowledged the state of Israel as their homeland, and did not go out of his way to reiterate it. He ignored those pressurising him to do so, but showed his support to Israel as an ally.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/david-camerons-speech-to-the-knesset-in-israel

[SirOracle]

Clanad In your post @14.21 on Frud. 14th you state that AJ Balfour was an Englishman. He was in fact a Scotsman.

I get fed up with people confusing nationality, by incorrectly calling them English rather than British.

Rant over.

[emmie]

no one questions that other peoples have been persecuted, it's not in dispute but i have a problem when i read some of the responses, as quite frankly it makes it sound as though the Jews were the bringers on of their misfortunes down the centuries, not sure i like that much, as to the current situation it doesn't look as though Cameron did as was suggested by the Poster, go and brown nose, he is PM and should be visiting, discussing and indeed trying to help, not just in Israel, but it's a good place to start, perhaps then some degree of hope can be levelled at these hotspots.

[emmie]

A J Balfour father was Scottish, his mother English, so not sure that automatically entitles him to become a Scot, his pedigree seems a direct link to high nobility. Not that any of this matters, of course.

[Gromit]

Emmie,
Balfour was born in Scotland. His father and Grandfather were Scottish. That satisfys me that he is Scottish.

[naomi24]

There’s no doubt the Jews have been scapegoated throughout history, not least by the church. Whatever Balfour was, the agreement and subsequent actions amounted to conceding, at least in the eyes of the Jews, that biblical prophecy was reaching fulfilment and that their claim to the land was made with God’s approval. Jom is right in saying that the situation we now have in the Middle East results from a kind of moral blackmail – it’s the consequence of an ill-considered attempt at appeasement. For the reasons given no other piece of land would have been acceptable to the Jews and, to the detriment of others, they have clearly been treated as a very special case. The whole thing was the ultimate in poor judgement. Peace in the Middle East will never be anything more than a pipe dream.

[jomifl]

When it comes down to it the only justification for the Jewish claims to a 'homeland' are a few words in the Old testament relating to a declaration by a very old Moses. Since it also states in the OT that the Jews came from Egypt then it must be obvious that the Jews have possibly less claim to Israel than the Palestinians.