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Britain Is A Christian Country - Get Over It. So Says Eric Pickles
123 Answers
in an attack on Atheists.
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Is he right? And what's it got to do with him whether you or I believe or not?
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Is he right? And what's it got to do with him whether you or I believe or not?
Answers
Wow, AoG. You seem impervious to the failure of your logic on this issue. It is not atheists, militant or otherwise, who are trying to tell others what to believe ,or to impose anything on others - rather, it is those, like, apparently,
14:32 Mon 07th Apr 2014
1.A local council is not a prayer group or an offshoot of a church, or part of the services.
2. Whether you like it or not, AoG, our society is not some monotheistic bloc. It consists of adherents of many religions, and none. Having a communal christian prayer session prior to a meeting is forcing your beliefs on others, in a secular workplace.
3. Mr. Pickles, by presiding over and supporting exempting councils from legal challenge over public prayer has effectively supported this issue. And by using terms like "we are a christian country" and "militant atheists" he is simply wrong.
Every commentator here pretty much has made exactly the same point. In a secular democratic society, you and your friends or colleagues are perfectly at liberty to pray - but go find a private space in which to do it, rather than inflicting it on those who do not share your beliefs. Mr. Pickles does not recognise this fundamental issue, it appears.
2. Whether you like it or not, AoG, our society is not some monotheistic bloc. It consists of adherents of many religions, and none. Having a communal christian prayer session prior to a meeting is forcing your beliefs on others, in a secular workplace.
3. Mr. Pickles, by presiding over and supporting exempting councils from legal challenge over public prayer has effectively supported this issue. And by using terms like "we are a christian country" and "militant atheists" he is simply wrong.
Every commentator here pretty much has made exactly the same point. In a secular democratic society, you and your friends or colleagues are perfectly at liberty to pray - but go find a private space in which to do it, rather than inflicting it on those who do not share your beliefs. Mr. Pickles does not recognise this fundamental issue, it appears.
What we are trying to say here aog, is that prayers are not relevant to the proceedings of a County Council. What does saying Christian prayers have to do with Council business ? Wouldn't it be a better idea if those that wanted to indulge in religious activities, like prayers, were to delay their entrance into the Council Chamber, rather then keep everybody else waiting ?
I had my hair cut today and went to the Library. I didn't think it was necessary to insist on including prayers before those two activities. I shall be going to B+Q this Sunday morning and I don't expect to see the staff saying prayers before they let me in. I can't see why Councils are any different ?
And there will be considerably more people queuing up for B+Q to open this Sunday, then there will waiting outside my local Parish Church for the Verger to come along with the key.
Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here...the Vicar maybe in the wrong place !
I had my hair cut today and went to the Library. I didn't think it was necessary to insist on including prayers before those two activities. I shall be going to B+Q this Sunday morning and I don't expect to see the staff saying prayers before they let me in. I can't see why Councils are any different ?
And there will be considerably more people queuing up for B+Q to open this Sunday, then there will waiting outside my local Parish Church for the Verger to come along with the key.
Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here...the Vicar maybe in the wrong place !
Well concluded, LG.....time to be moving on.
I wouldn't care if they pray in a church, chapel, the carpark, canteen or even the khazi, but not in a secular meeting. There's a place in society for those who do believe in God, or in some cases 'and Christ,' and I am not advocating busting into their Synod, Mosque, Temple or Parish meetings, or whatever, pontificating about atheism; let Pickles and the Christians get on with it - but in the right place at the right time.
I wouldn't care if they pray in a church, chapel, the carpark, canteen or even the khazi, but not in a secular meeting. There's a place in society for those who do believe in God, or in some cases 'and Christ,' and I am not advocating busting into their Synod, Mosque, Temple or Parish meetings, or whatever, pontificating about atheism; let Pickles and the Christians get on with it - but in the right place at the right time.
LazyGun
We could all argue till the end of time, what is life all about, and how we got here and for what purpose? Unlike the time they found that the world wasn't flat, which everyone believed until it was proven otherwise.
So who can hand on their heart say for definite, that a God doesn't exist?
Could it be a natural happening that took place, if so how?
Could it have been Aliens from another universe who inhabited the earth and if so who created their world?
Scientists throughout the ages have come up with various theories, but to date nothing has been proven for certain, so if some believe that creation was the work of a super human, (and since people throughout the world who had no contact with each other all chose a god of some description), what's saying that their theory is any more unbelievable than other theories?
We could all argue till the end of time, what is life all about, and how we got here and for what purpose? Unlike the time they found that the world wasn't flat, which everyone believed until it was proven otherwise.
So who can hand on their heart say for definite, that a God doesn't exist?
Could it be a natural happening that took place, if so how?
Could it have been Aliens from another universe who inhabited the earth and if so who created their world?
Scientists throughout the ages have come up with various theories, but to date nothing has been proven for certain, so if some believe that creation was the work of a super human, (and since people throughout the world who had no contact with each other all chose a god of some description), what's saying that their theory is any more unbelievable than other theories?
aog's Comprehension Failure is irrevocable apparently:
//the Padre was issuing prayers at the beginning of a parade, those who were of other faiths were allowed to step out ....
no one was forced to attend//
allowed???
not forced???
well whoopee doo
assuming that these rituals are 'the norm' and non compliance is by some special dispensation demonstrates a total lack of understanding that many of us consider these rituals to be anything but 'normal'
Having these bizarre procedures such as the reciting of 'The Lord's Prayer' and other nonsense uttered in public places such as Council Chambers where proper business should be conducted is totally unacceptable to many Tax Payers
//the Padre was issuing prayers at the beginning of a parade, those who were of other faiths were allowed to step out ....
no one was forced to attend//
allowed???
not forced???
well whoopee doo
assuming that these rituals are 'the norm' and non compliance is by some special dispensation demonstrates a total lack of understanding that many of us consider these rituals to be anything but 'normal'
Having these bizarre procedures such as the reciting of 'The Lord's Prayer' and other nonsense uttered in public places such as Council Chambers where proper business should be conducted is totally unacceptable to many Tax Payers
// "Militant atheists" should "get over it", he told the Conservative spring forum in London. "We are a Christian nation," he insisted. "And don't impose your politically correct intolerance on others." //
So why didn't he quote this when the Christian couple were taken to task for refusing to accommodate Homosexuals at their bed & breakfast hotel ? They were only upholding their Christian beliefs. The people who brought the case to court should have been told "And don't impose your politically correct intolerance on others." //
So why didn't he quote this when the Christian couple were taken to task for refusing to accommodate Homosexuals at their bed & breakfast hotel ? They were only upholding their Christian beliefs. The people who brought the case to court should have been told "And don't impose your politically correct intolerance on others." //
"Scientists throughout the ages have come up with various theories, but to date nothing has been proven for certain, so if some believe that creation was the work of a super human, (and since people throughout the world who had no contact with each other all chose a god of some description), what's saying that their theory is any more unbelievable than other theories?"
It really merits a separate discussion, AoG, preferably in R&S ;) People are at liberty to believe that, if they wish - indeed, several quite high profile scientists who profess a belief reconcile their belief with the science in exactly that fashion. It is when those who have a belief allow that belief to take precedence over what the science and facts and observation tell us that I have a problem - as with young earth creationists, for example.
All I would say is that such a belief is essentially a "God of the Gaps" approach - and that gap gets smaller and smaller each year, so the fig leaf of cover represented by scientific ignorance gets less and less.
And certainly such a god - a kind of disinterested creator who gave rise to the first cause- is vastly different to the type of god typified by all of the abrahamic religions.
It really merits a separate discussion, AoG, preferably in R&S ;) People are at liberty to believe that, if they wish - indeed, several quite high profile scientists who profess a belief reconcile their belief with the science in exactly that fashion. It is when those who have a belief allow that belief to take precedence over what the science and facts and observation tell us that I have a problem - as with young earth creationists, for example.
All I would say is that such a belief is essentially a "God of the Gaps" approach - and that gap gets smaller and smaller each year, so the fig leaf of cover represented by scientific ignorance gets less and less.
And certainly such a god - a kind of disinterested creator who gave rise to the first cause- is vastly different to the type of god typified by all of the abrahamic religions.
By mentioning the uncertainty over the debate about religion surely you've just scuttled your own argument. Basing governmental policy on something that is by your own admission inherently unknowable is just asking for trouble. Who is to say who is right about not only the existence or not of God but also what His/ its/ their nature might be?
So let's keep it out of the government office, then.
So let's keep it out of the government office, then.
/Unlike the time they found that the world wasn't flat, which everyone believed until it was proven otherwise./
aog
that isn't true.
anyone who has ever been to sea or stood on a hilltop can see the earth is curved. The ancient Greeks calculated the globe's circumference and mass and visualised it (metaphorically) sitting on the shoulders of a giant.
The notion you seem to believe was invented and propagated in the 19th century by the American author Washington Irving.
/So who can hand on their heart say for definite, that a God doesn't exist?/
No one
Just as no one can hand on heart say for definite that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist.
that isn't a good reason to believe that one does.
aog
that isn't true.
anyone who has ever been to sea or stood on a hilltop can see the earth is curved. The ancient Greeks calculated the globe's circumference and mass and visualised it (metaphorically) sitting on the shoulders of a giant.
The notion you seem to believe was invented and propagated in the 19th century by the American author Washington Irving.
/So who can hand on their heart say for definite, that a God doesn't exist?/
No one
Just as no one can hand on heart say for definite that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist.
that isn't a good reason to believe that one does.
mikey4444
/// What we are trying to say here aog, is that prayers are not relevant to the proceedings of a County Council. What does saying Christian prayers have to do with Council business ? Wouldn't it be a better idea if those that wanted to indulge in religious activities, like prayers, were to delay their entrance into the Council Chamber, rather then keep everybody else
waiting ? ///
There again you are speculating that those wishing to take part in prayers before the meeting are in the minority.
Some hold certain traditions dear, and although some are not particularly religious, they still wish to hang onto traditional ceremonies that have taken place for hundreds if not thousands of years.
How many non religious persons choose to get married in a Church, do you see any non believing guests waiting outside the Church until the ceremony is over?
The same could be said about Christenings, funerals, State Occasions, and don't they take part in prayers in the House of Commons, or should those also hold their prayers outside the Chamber so as not to delay important proceedings?
/// What we are trying to say here aog, is that prayers are not relevant to the proceedings of a County Council. What does saying Christian prayers have to do with Council business ? Wouldn't it be a better idea if those that wanted to indulge in religious activities, like prayers, were to delay their entrance into the Council Chamber, rather then keep everybody else
waiting ? ///
There again you are speculating that those wishing to take part in prayers before the meeting are in the minority.
Some hold certain traditions dear, and although some are not particularly religious, they still wish to hang onto traditional ceremonies that have taken place for hundreds if not thousands of years.
How many non religious persons choose to get married in a Church, do you see any non believing guests waiting outside the Church until the ceremony is over?
The same could be said about Christenings, funerals, State Occasions, and don't they take part in prayers in the House of Commons, or should those also hold their prayers outside the Chamber so as not to delay important proceedings?
4th paragraph ... is Brighton the least religious town in the country?
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Or is it Norwich?
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Either way, I think voodoo and the occult have a much bigger following here than Christianity.
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Or is it Norwich?
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Either way, I think voodoo and the occult have a much bigger following here than Christianity.
Ludwig...LOL...Actually there was a new trainee in the Barbers today. She looked about 16 years old and I was a bit nervous, but decided to let her have a go.
Big mistake. I normally have a short haircut but this afternoon I look like Ray Winstone's stand in, on a bad day. Bl**dy hell, its short. My head now looks like a slightly grey, over-large billard ball.
Still, I will save on shampoo I suppose. I could attach a photo but Ed would remove it for fear that it might cause widespread alarm and panic.
Big mistake. I normally have a short haircut but this afternoon I look like Ray Winstone's stand in, on a bad day. Bl**dy hell, its short. My head now looks like a slightly grey, over-large billard ball.
Still, I will save on shampoo I suppose. I could attach a photo but Ed would remove it for fear that it might cause widespread alarm and panic.
/There again you are speculating that those wishing to take part in prayers before the meeting are in the minority./
That's irrelevant.
This behaviour in the Council Chamber is inappropriate regardless of what proportion of members want to do it.
/How many non religious persons choose to get married in a Church, do you see any non believing guests waiting outside the Church until the ceremony is over?/
The people whose wedding it is (and directly or indirectly pay for it) set the frame for how much religion will play a part in proceedings.
The Council Meetings are paid for by taxpayers. I suspect the majority of such wouldn't choose to include these prayers.
That's irrelevant.
This behaviour in the Council Chamber is inappropriate regardless of what proportion of members want to do it.
/How many non religious persons choose to get married in a Church, do you see any non believing guests waiting outside the Church until the ceremony is over?/
The people whose wedding it is (and directly or indirectly pay for it) set the frame for how much religion will play a part in proceedings.
The Council Meetings are paid for by taxpayers. I suspect the majority of such wouldn't choose to include these prayers.
aog...I am going to have one more go at this and then I am going to give up and go to the kitchen to make a chicken curry.
I am sure that there are indeed people in council meetings, as well the Barbers, Library and B+Q that are religious but that is not the point. Council meetings are secular occasions, not religious ceremonies, and the inclusion of prayers, Christian or otherwise is not appropriate for the occasion.
That is the point that I and most everybody else on here is trying to make. Religion should play no part in the democratic process.
I am sure that there are indeed people in council meetings, as well the Barbers, Library and B+Q that are religious but that is not the point. Council meetings are secular occasions, not religious ceremonies, and the inclusion of prayers, Christian or otherwise is not appropriate for the occasion.
That is the point that I and most everybody else on here is trying to make. Religion should play no part in the democratic process.
whiskeryron
/// So why didn't he quote this when the Christian couple were taken to for refusing to accommodate Homosexuals at their bed & breakfast hotel ? ///
Simply because this was illegal, and while it is perfectly okay to bring in laws to protect some, the Christian Church does not generally receive such protection, so in this particular case the law was changed simply because a particular council wanted to ban prayers at the start of council meetings, a victory against those who wish to enforce their politically correct intolerance on others, yippee a result at last.
/// So why didn't he quote this when the Christian couple were taken to for refusing to accommodate Homosexuals at their bed & breakfast hotel ? ///
Simply because this was illegal, and while it is perfectly okay to bring in laws to protect some, the Christian Church does not generally receive such protection, so in this particular case the law was changed simply because a particular council wanted to ban prayers at the start of council meetings, a victory against those who wish to enforce their politically correct intolerance on others, yippee a result at last.
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