Max Clifford Trial

[mikey4444]

The Jury have now been deliberating for 7 days. Since last Wednesday, the Judge has given permission for them to come back with a minority verdict, ie 9 to 1.

Does any of our resident experts here on AB know if there is a maximum number of days that a Jury can spend on deliberations, before the Judge has to step in and order a re-trial ? Or is up to the Judges discretion ?

[jno]

remember, there are 11 charges, not just one.

[mikey4444]

You are right jno. so a supplementary question.

Are the Jury allowed to come back with a verdict on some charges, while still being unable to decide on the rest ? I suspect that the answer is yes, as I am sure that is what happened to DLT. If that is the case, how much discretion does the Judge have, or must he act on regulations laid down ? I'm sure that this can't be open-ended.

[jno]

pretty sure the answer is yes, the charges are to be considered separately, which may be one reason for it taking so long. I can't see the judge being allowed to put pressure on the jury to hurry up, so a more likely scenario is that they come back and say "We're not going to get a verdict on X charges" and the judge takes it from there.

[hc4361]

I can't help but think what would have been the outcome if he was arrested and charged with the first of these offences at the time, in 1966.

I'm not blaming the then 14 year old for not coming forward but if he had been found not guilty would he have stopped his behaviour (assuming at this point that he did carry out those acts)?
If he had been found guilty what would the punishment have been? Would that have stopped him reoffending?

Anyway, to answer your question the current record for jury deliberations is 24 days. That was after a year long terrorism trial of 7 men.

[mikey4444]

Thanks everybody.

[ToraToraTora]

if they can't find him guilty they the judge can order a not guilty and end this farce. He may be found guilty of some of the charges.

[Gromit]

There is no maximum time set for jury deliberations.

A trial in 2007, the jury took 27 days before arriving at its verdict.

After the recent criticism of the CPS in bringing these history prosecutions, I doubt there would be a re-trial if the jury were unable to make a decision.

[mikey4444]

But isn't a re-trial exactly what has happened on DLT's case ? He has now been rearrested over charges that his previous Jury couldn't come to a decision on, or have misunderstood this ? Just wondering how many bites of the cherry the CPS is allowed.

[ChillDoubt]

After the recent criticism of the CPS in bringing these history prosecutions, I doubt there would be a re-trial if the jury were unable to make a decision.
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I'm not sure DLT would agree with that assessment!

The longevity of this(Clifford) jury's decision surely goes in his favour. Even if found guilty after 7 days there'll be an automatic appeal one would guess as there must be quite some level of doubt.

[mikey4444]

Chilli...it really does depend on what the Jury can't make up its mind about. It could be that 9 think he is guilty and 1 not-guilty, or it could be the other way around. We don't know, nor will we ever know.

[jno]

you can't appeal on the basis that "there must have been some doubt". The point is that jurors may have doubts when they begin deliberating but discussions with other jurors may serve to banish those doubts. It's okay for jurors to change their minds - either way - during debate, that's what the jury room is for. If the jury conclude that they can't reach a decision on one or all fo the counts they'll say so. They have no interest in staying there forever.

[ChillDoubt]

So if found guilty, Clifford won't make an automatic appeal?
Wouldn't hold my breath on that one!

[Gromit]

As I understand the Dave Lee Travis case, he is being tried for a new charge that the previous jury did not consider. The two charges the previous jury failed to make a decision on are to be added to the new charges before a new jury.

[ChillDoubt]

He was to stand for re-trial on the 2 they couldn't agree on Gromit, the most recent charge was added to those I believe.

[jno]

of course he'll appeal, but it won't be on the basis that the jury were fibbing about how much doubt they had.

[ChillDoubt]

So you concur with my assessment that he will appeal. Thanks.

[jno]

he'll appeal - can you imagine Clifford breaking down and saying "You've got me bang to rights"? As long as he can afford the lawyers - which will be a long time - he'll play the system, which has after all always been his job.

[jno]

sorry, are you suggesting he'd want a retrial with a different jury, in the hope that they'd go the other way? Retrials are usually sought by the prosecution; you can see the possible grounds here

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/retrials/

Defendants just appeal, and that's usually on procedural grounds (the judge's summing-up was inaccurate, improper questions were allowed in cross-examination etc). But that doesn't normally get you a retrial unless the appeal court rules that there was something wrong with the conduct of the original trial. A jury verdict would have to be very perverse indeed for it to form the basis of an appeal.

This isn't my field so someone else may be able to give a better answer.

[New Judge]

Tes if the jury dealing with Mr Clifford's case cannot agree on any of the charges the onus will be on the prosecution to ask the judge to order a retrial. Retrials are usually ordered but one of the features of this matter is the length of time that has elapsed since the alleged offences. As well as this the judge will have to consider if there is a realistic chance of a conviction. Second retrials are rarely ordered.

If DLT had been found guilty on most of the charges against him it is highly unlikely that the CPS would have sought a second trial for the remainder (on the basis that the total sentence imposed is unlikely to be significantly different with the extra two convictions). Last Thursday he pleaded Not Guilty to an additional charge of indecent assault. This is over and above the charges for which he is facing retrial following the jury's failure to agree verdicts a few weeks ago.

[mikey4444]

Thanks NJ...I have been waiting for you to log on !

In answer to my original post, is there a maximum amount of time that a Jury can spend deliberating, or that up the Judges discretion ?