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High Time
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According to Sky News this morning...the ticker-tape strip at the bottom of the screen...Julian Assange is thinking of leaving the Ecuadorian embassy. If he does, I hope his feet scarcely touch UK soil before he is whisked aboard a Scandinavian aircraft and bustled off to Stockholm!
Answers
Would justice be served if he eventually found himself doing a long term in an American prison?
07:00 Mon 18th Aug 2014
QM, the US authorities would have to charge a number of publishers if they charge Assange. They would have to look at an alternative charge(s) and then have the problem of proving it. It is only known that the US are looking into a 'serious criminal offence' but that is as far as it has got.
Turning back to Sweden, you are of course right, that we were not present in either bedroom so we are in no position to make a judgment as to his guilt or innocence. As I have already indicated the fact that he put to flight is not an indication of guilt as some would suggest. He made a request to Ecuador which was granted with conditions attached.
I do not disagree that he should face questioning but now that this situation has presented itself i.e impasse, there is no reason why the Swedish authorities should not have conducted an international visit (as they have done many times before). There is much opinion from experienced legal people in Sweden that this should have occurred to prevent this fiasco. The prosecutor has been asked why it is absolutely imperative that he is questioned in Sweden and when pressed they have been unnecessarily evasive.
I fail to see how this farce is going to end soon unless there is a serious medical requirement which requires him to leave the embassy and even that would seem doubtful in the short term or that Sweden gets a grip and fast.
How may more millions are the UK going to spend on this, I would like to know what efforts are being made between the countries to move this forward...
Turning back to Sweden, you are of course right, that we were not present in either bedroom so we are in no position to make a judgment as to his guilt or innocence. As I have already indicated the fact that he put to flight is not an indication of guilt as some would suggest. He made a request to Ecuador which was granted with conditions attached.
I do not disagree that he should face questioning but now that this situation has presented itself i.e impasse, there is no reason why the Swedish authorities should not have conducted an international visit (as they have done many times before). There is much opinion from experienced legal people in Sweden that this should have occurred to prevent this fiasco. The prosecutor has been asked why it is absolutely imperative that he is questioned in Sweden and when pressed they have been unnecessarily evasive.
I fail to see how this farce is going to end soon unless there is a serious medical requirement which requires him to leave the embassy and even that would seem doubtful in the short term or that Sweden gets a grip and fast.
How may more millions are the UK going to spend on this, I would like to know what efforts are being made between the countries to move this forward...
So, Ag, have all the publishers you refer to sought political asylum in varied foreign embassies? I think not, so why does Assange continue with this utter farce of claiming he is in mortal danger from the Americans?
Britain is obligated to extradite him to Sweden and, if he does exit the embassy for medical treatment - ill-health being the latest bogey-man, apparently - I trust we will honour our obligation, arrest him and send him onwards.
On that note, we'll just have to agree to disagree, ma'am, but thank you for your input to my posting.
Britain is obligated to extradite him to Sweden and, if he does exit the embassy for medical treatment - ill-health being the latest bogey-man, apparently - I trust we will honour our obligation, arrest him and send him onwards.
On that note, we'll just have to agree to disagree, ma'am, but thank you for your input to my posting.
QM - Obviously, the other publishers haven't done a flit, I was just pointing out the difficulty the US would have in pursuing this line. In fact, I don't believe it can be possible.
The UK do have an obligation to arrest him if he emerges and I do actually agree and respect much of what you have said. I strongly believe that the Swedish authorities have not acted with any real purpose and intent despite the situation they are faced with. Very convenient for them to let the UK pick up a huge bill (whatever the current and eventual cost may be). I still believe he could have been interviewed at the embassy or by video link which is another option that was disregarded by Sweden, but no, they are insisting he has to be questioned in Sweden. This intransigent approach, without proper explanation, is unhelpful to finding a solution.
Let me ask you this QM - how, realistically, do you see this ending if Assange does not vacate any time soon on a health matter or otherwise? How much more expense is to be incurred? 5m, 10m?
It is an excellent discussion matter and I commend you for raising it. We can't always agree on everything but I am more than happy to contribute further.
The UK do have an obligation to arrest him if he emerges and I do actually agree and respect much of what you have said. I strongly believe that the Swedish authorities have not acted with any real purpose and intent despite the situation they are faced with. Very convenient for them to let the UK pick up a huge bill (whatever the current and eventual cost may be). I still believe he could have been interviewed at the embassy or by video link which is another option that was disregarded by Sweden, but no, they are insisting he has to be questioned in Sweden. This intransigent approach, without proper explanation, is unhelpful to finding a solution.
Let me ask you this QM - how, realistically, do you see this ending if Assange does not vacate any time soon on a health matter or otherwise? How much more expense is to be incurred? 5m, 10m?
It is an excellent discussion matter and I commend you for raising it. We can't always agree on everything but I am more than happy to contribute further.
"I am in blood stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, returning were as tedious as go o'er." (Macbeth)
We're in much the same place as Macbeth, Ag, though with rather more honour than he! In other words, we have gone this far and might just as well proceed; indeed, our legal obligations compel us to do so.
Assange, must be almost as much of a thorn in the side for the Ecuadorians by now as he is for the UK. However, Cardinal Mindszenty spent 15 years in the American embassy in Budapest from 1956 - 1971 in pursuit of religious freedom for Hungary's citizens. A somewhat more honourable cause than Assange's utterly selfish one, I imagine you'd agree.
I can't see our 'thorn' sticking it out that long, but - in a way - he is in fact in self-imposed 'imprisonment', so that in itself is satisfying.
We're in much the same place as Macbeth, Ag, though with rather more honour than he! In other words, we have gone this far and might just as well proceed; indeed, our legal obligations compel us to do so.
Assange, must be almost as much of a thorn in the side for the Ecuadorians by now as he is for the UK. However, Cardinal Mindszenty spent 15 years in the American embassy in Budapest from 1956 - 1971 in pursuit of religious freedom for Hungary's citizens. A somewhat more honourable cause than Assange's utterly selfish one, I imagine you'd agree.
I can't see our 'thorn' sticking it out that long, but - in a way - he is in fact in self-imposed 'imprisonment', so that in itself is satisfying.
In other words QM, the UK racks up more millions until Sweden speaks to him but since they are not prepared to interview him by video link or visit then there can be no solution. Assange will stick it out until he is given 'safe passage' which will not happen either.
I did like the Macbeth quote, very apt in the circumstances. Yes, the UK is obligated to arrest him but does it require the current police staffing levels and is it being reviewed. Where are the discussions with Sweden? Perhaps more appropriate in Shakespearean analogies, the officials should light a Hamlet?
It is somewhat ironic that the Equadorian officials state that the two year deadlock is unacceptable in advancing both Assange's own and the Swedish case but President Correa is on record of being an admirer of Assange's work let alone the stance that his human rights could be infringed. As much as Assange appears to have been underestimated it is hard to believe that initially the President thought the siege would not last long. Giving him an 'indefinite' stay would suggest that he knew this could be a long haul.
Assange is a very driven, intelligent and intense figure and won't concede. Regarding his fear of being extradited to the US, I don't see it happening. As recent as the end of last year the Department of Justice have dismissed that there is a likelihood of a prosecution under the Espionage Act. The First Amendment relates to free speech and also proving that he colluded with Bradley (Chelsea) Manning is extremely unlikely.
Matching the cardinal's duration won't happen in this case, the Swedish case would be thrown out in 2020 remember if not progressed.
The 'thorn', who many would consider has abused the asylum process, is calling the shots. If his health stands up, he will prevail. His room is well kitted out, for his sake, I hope his sun lamp does the trick though he does of course have a balcony. Maybe his next address to the world will come from there rather than one of the strangest press conferences I have seen.....
I did like the Macbeth quote, very apt in the circumstances. Yes, the UK is obligated to arrest him but does it require the current police staffing levels and is it being reviewed. Where are the discussions with Sweden? Perhaps more appropriate in Shakespearean analogies, the officials should light a Hamlet?
It is somewhat ironic that the Equadorian officials state that the two year deadlock is unacceptable in advancing both Assange's own and the Swedish case but President Correa is on record of being an admirer of Assange's work let alone the stance that his human rights could be infringed. As much as Assange appears to have been underestimated it is hard to believe that initially the President thought the siege would not last long. Giving him an 'indefinite' stay would suggest that he knew this could be a long haul.
Assange is a very driven, intelligent and intense figure and won't concede. Regarding his fear of being extradited to the US, I don't see it happening. As recent as the end of last year the Department of Justice have dismissed that there is a likelihood of a prosecution under the Espionage Act. The First Amendment relates to free speech and also proving that he colluded with Bradley (Chelsea) Manning is extremely unlikely.
Matching the cardinal's duration won't happen in this case, the Swedish case would be thrown out in 2020 remember if not progressed.
The 'thorn', who many would consider has abused the asylum process, is calling the shots. If his health stands up, he will prevail. His room is well kitted out, for his sake, I hope his sun lamp does the trick though he does of course have a balcony. Maybe his next address to the world will come from there rather than one of the strangest press conferences I have seen.....
Ag, £7 million is a bagatelle in the grand scheme of things. The American company, Raytheon, was recently awarded £224 million after our government unlawfully terminated its contract.
In addition, the Major Projects Authority (MPA) oversees and assesses some 200 large government projects. Among these, they created a whole new category recently for just ONE single such project; namely, Iain Duncan Smith's Universal Credit fiasco. It alone has been officially categorised as (quote) "Reset". The Lord alone knows how much that shambles has or will yet cost us.
The Raytheon fine in itself would have covered keeping an eye on Assange for a further sixty-four years at the current rate, never mind just until 2020!
Police stake-outs are notoriously 'expensive' in manpower, given that they can only possibly be effective if they are mounted 24/7 and cover all possible exits. In addition, they must rotate the personnel involved so that there is at least some variety built in as regards time and place for individuals to be on duty. Lacking that, boredom would render the monitoring useless.
The Met has done exceedingly well for two years now and I trust it will go on doing so until the absconder or his hosts come to their senses.
In addition, the Major Projects Authority (MPA) oversees and assesses some 200 large government projects. Among these, they created a whole new category recently for just ONE single such project; namely, Iain Duncan Smith's Universal Credit fiasco. It alone has been officially categorised as (quote) "Reset". The Lord alone knows how much that shambles has or will yet cost us.
The Raytheon fine in itself would have covered keeping an eye on Assange for a further sixty-four years at the current rate, never mind just until 2020!
Police stake-outs are notoriously 'expensive' in manpower, given that they can only possibly be effective if they are mounted 24/7 and cover all possible exits. In addition, they must rotate the personnel involved so that there is at least some variety built in as regards time and place for individuals to be on duty. Lacking that, boredom would render the monitoring useless.
The Met has done exceedingly well for two years now and I trust it will go on doing so until the absconder or his hosts come to their senses.
QM, by quoting Raytheon, Credit Universal, etc it almost sounds like you consider it £7m money well spent! You simply can't compare this case with those sums or justify it in that way.
My point is that surely savings can be made by reconsidering the current situation. I've alluded to other avenues but neither Sweden or Equador is budging an inch.
Interesting that normally charges are brought before extradition proceedings but not in Sweden where charges come very late in the process.
Assange has stolen a very big march....
By the way, we have had this thread between us for some time, surely somebody will come back on this!
I look forward to 'Best' or 'Better' answer! 0:)
My point is that surely savings can be made by reconsidering the current situation. I've alluded to other avenues but neither Sweden or Equador is budging an inch.
Interesting that normally charges are brought before extradition proceedings but not in Sweden where charges come very late in the process.
Assange has stolen a very big march....
By the way, we have had this thread between us for some time, surely somebody will come back on this!
I look forward to 'Best' or 'Better' answer! 0:)
As you say, it seems to be just "down to thee and me" now. I see little prospect of our reaching any form of agreement, so perhaps the time has come to simply put it to bed.
I DO consider it money well spent, by the way. The rascal is still here isn't he? And as for his having "stolen a march" on anyone, he has only got about twelve feet to move about in. That's some 'march'! And again you query the Swedes' methods of doing things. Who else's methods would you expect them to use? Presumably, if you or some woman close to you believed you/she had been raped, you'd expect British methods would be adopted to bring the accused to justice here, wouldn't you, rather than Ukrainian ones or Malaysian ones?
Whatever...I think it's time for us to leave it there. I've enjoyed our conversation which we've had without rancour or offence. Thank you.
I DO consider it money well spent, by the way. The rascal is still here isn't he? And as for his having "stolen a march" on anyone, he has only got about twelve feet to move about in. That's some 'march'! And again you query the Swedes' methods of doing things. Who else's methods would you expect them to use? Presumably, if you or some woman close to you believed you/she had been raped, you'd expect British methods would be adopted to bring the accused to justice here, wouldn't you, rather than Ukrainian ones or Malaysian ones?
Whatever...I think it's time for us to leave it there. I've enjoyed our conversation which we've had without rancour or offence. Thank you.
QM, I do not post on AB in order to reach full agreement with the original poster's views. I fully respect your views and opinions and actually agree on some of the points you have made. I agree that Assange should face questioning and by the Swedish authorities. I disagree with the Swedish stance about how they have conducted the matter.
If I or a friend of mine had been raped I would be livid if the accused had absconded but I would be apoplectic with the UK if they simply sat back on the insistence that he could only be interviewed in the home country and effectively doing nothing.
We agree that the UK should arrest if he leaves the embassy, we disagree on the cost of the operation.
I have seen many threads that turn very personal and abusive and I think that our entries are an excellent example of healthy debate and so I too thank you for your considered replies.
I was hoping after the initial flurry that others would come back with further thoughts. Time will tell as will the outcome, if there is to be one, to this case!
If I or a friend of mine had been raped I would be livid if the accused had absconded but I would be apoplectic with the UK if they simply sat back on the insistence that he could only be interviewed in the home country and effectively doing nothing.
We agree that the UK should arrest if he leaves the embassy, we disagree on the cost of the operation.
I have seen many threads that turn very personal and abusive and I think that our entries are an excellent example of healthy debate and so I too thank you for your considered replies.
I was hoping after the initial flurry that others would come back with further thoughts. Time will tell as will the outcome, if there is to be one, to this case!
I do love a civilised thread and enjoy reading opposing opinions although I am oddly self-conscious about adopting second-hand views and prefer to stick an offbeat oar into the maelstrom instead.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I became aware of the facts out of sequence: first he was wanted for espionage and, seemingly, the Swedish Police came to his rescue with the (potentially trumped up) sexual assault/rape charges - prison, as opposed to death. Is that the actual sequence or was the sexual offence only "local news", as far as the UK media was concerned (at the espionage stage)?
Whatever the case, the timing was awfully convenient…
Correct me if I'm wrong but I became aware of the facts out of sequence: first he was wanted for espionage and, seemingly, the Swedish Police came to his rescue with the (potentially trumped up) sexual assault/rape charges - prison, as opposed to death. Is that the actual sequence or was the sexual offence only "local news", as far as the UK media was concerned (at the espionage stage)?
Whatever the case, the timing was awfully convenient…
http://
Hypo, above is a timeline of the situation from Assange's arrival in Sweden in 2010 to his disappearance into the Ecuadorian embassy in 2012.
I'll leave you to suss out sites about the American angle on all this.
Hypo, above is a timeline of the situation from Assange's arrival in Sweden in 2010 to his disappearance into the Ecuadorian embassy in 2012.
I'll leave you to suss out sites about the American angle on all this.
Hi Hypo, hope you are well, good to have you on board as QM and I have been slugging this out between us!
Your initial impressions doesn't portray the reality of the situation and the Swedish police have certainly not come to Assange's rescue. QM has helpfully included a timeline which summarises part of the case. I won't insult your intelligence but if you do look into this further you will get an even clearer picture.
The release of the Wiki material occurred in the months either side of Aug '10 when the Swedish women made their sex claims. Wiki also released a video of US military which was damning.
The US have not charged Assange with espionage or anything for that matter and it remains to be seen if the authorities in Washington do so, but in my opinion, it is highly unlikely.
Assange presented himself to police in London in Dec '10 regarding the Swedish matter. Assange claims that their pursuit is politically motivated and backed by the US.
I have been highly critical of the Swedish prosecutors in their approach to this case and in turn the cost of the surveillance operation by the UK.
Assange distrusts the Swedish authorities and is fearful that he could be extradited to the US where he could, in theory, face execution. The Swedish Foreign Minister has stated however that he would not be handed over where this option is a possibility.
Hypo, it's over to you...
Your initial impressions doesn't portray the reality of the situation and the Swedish police have certainly not come to Assange's rescue. QM has helpfully included a timeline which summarises part of the case. I won't insult your intelligence but if you do look into this further you will get an even clearer picture.
The release of the Wiki material occurred in the months either side of Aug '10 when the Swedish women made their sex claims. Wiki also released a video of US military which was damning.
The US have not charged Assange with espionage or anything for that matter and it remains to be seen if the authorities in Washington do so, but in my opinion, it is highly unlikely.
Assange presented himself to police in London in Dec '10 regarding the Swedish matter. Assange claims that their pursuit is politically motivated and backed by the US.
I have been highly critical of the Swedish prosecutors in their approach to this case and in turn the cost of the surveillance operation by the UK.
Assange distrusts the Swedish authorities and is fearful that he could be extradited to the US where he could, in theory, face execution. The Swedish Foreign Minister has stated however that he would not be handed over where this option is a possibility.
Hypo, it's over to you...
Thanks for the link, QM.
First reference to the US is (2011)
//February 11 - Assange appears at the final day of the hearing where the case is adjourned to February 24.
His lawyers claim extradition would breach his human rights and fear he could ultimately be taken against his will to the United States and executed.//
It's taken as read that people reading that page know the reasons for this. My brain hast filed it under "the past", rather than a particular year and refuses to believe it was all that long ago.
It's the way cases are dragged out to years after the event that amazes me. Justice delayed is justice denied, isn't it?
Still, we can't streamline the system by increasing the numbers of lawyers and judges etc., can we? That would only diminish their earning potential. Can't have that.
First reference to the US is (2011)
//February 11 - Assange appears at the final day of the hearing where the case is adjourned to February 24.
His lawyers claim extradition would breach his human rights and fear he could ultimately be taken against his will to the United States and executed.//
It's taken as read that people reading that page know the reasons for this. My brain hast filed it under "the past", rather than a particular year and refuses to believe it was all that long ago.
It's the way cases are dragged out to years after the event that amazes me. Justice delayed is justice denied, isn't it?
Still, we can't streamline the system by increasing the numbers of lawyers and judges etc., can we? That would only diminish their earning potential. Can't have that.
Thanks for your concern, ag. Aside from the chronic fatigue, I'm okay. Hope you're well, too.
The release of the damning video sticks in the mind. At the time, I was supportive of that specific leak because it backed up the view, in certain circles, that the US had a tendency to be gung-ho, use words like go0k and fall short of being the white hats they make themselves out to be.
With the passage of time, it transpires that Manning's leaks were of such volume that they contained data he and Wikileaks had no time to check before they published the lot, in bulk. "Information of use to an enemy" may have been lurking in the pile of papers. Once converted from paper to digital form, those who know what to search for can find the needle in the haystack in seconds. Bad for all of us.
So, we got a video confirming the sort of thing we only suspected, previously and a security headache for the US Military. He's no hero, in my book so let's see what transpires in Sweden.
The release of the damning video sticks in the mind. At the time, I was supportive of that specific leak because it backed up the view, in certain circles, that the US had a tendency to be gung-ho, use words like go0k and fall short of being the white hats they make themselves out to be.
With the passage of time, it transpires that Manning's leaks were of such volume that they contained data he and Wikileaks had no time to check before they published the lot, in bulk. "Information of use to an enemy" may have been lurking in the pile of papers. Once converted from paper to digital form, those who know what to search for can find the needle in the haystack in seconds. Bad for all of us.
So, we got a video confirming the sort of thing we only suspected, previously and a security headache for the US Military. He's no hero, in my book so let's see what transpires in Sweden.
Im fine thanks Hypo, sorry about your fatigue, not nice.
Thanks for your thoughts on this. I cannot envisage Assange beung charged by the US despite Manning's 35 year sentence and because of the Swedish approach I dont see any headway being made there either which is outrageous for both Assange and the allegations made by the two Swedish women.
This is a highly complex matter with so many issues thrown up. Assange may not be a hero to many but he has been underestimated which given his intelligence was a foolhardy thing to do.
Whether anybody agrees with his asylum request or the subsequent acceptance by the President of Ecuador, the resultant actions of his would-be prosecutor have been a disgrace to the judicial process.
Thanks for your thoughts on this. I cannot envisage Assange beung charged by the US despite Manning's 35 year sentence and because of the Swedish approach I dont see any headway being made there either which is outrageous for both Assange and the allegations made by the two Swedish women.
This is a highly complex matter with so many issues thrown up. Assange may not be a hero to many but he has been underestimated which given his intelligence was a foolhardy thing to do.
Whether anybody agrees with his asylum request or the subsequent acceptance by the President of Ecuador, the resultant actions of his would-be prosecutor have been a disgrace to the judicial process.
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