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What A Tragic Ending.
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But what can the Police do, if someone reaches for a gun (and it certainly looks like one) they can't stand there and be shot first.
But what can the Police do, if someone reaches for a gun (and it certainly looks like one) they can't stand there and be shot first.
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It looks like a decision in the Ferguson case may be imminent.
It looks like a decision in the Ferguson case may be imminent.
Apart from the instant, wincing, reaction - the police could have shot for his legs and brought him down so that he was harmless - unpleasant, but he would have his life before him.
Personal experience; I was crossing the playground to the gym block, accompanying a class of girls (aged 10/11)ready to get changed after break when I was confronted by one of our pupils (14) pointing a 'gun' at me. (He was in isolation because of bad behaviour and so took his break when others were back in class.) I knew this boy, that his brother was often drugged-up, that he had been caught with small quantities of cannabis and that his family dealt in a big way. (Yes we told the police and eventually they got them.) I also knew that, although small, the gun could have been the local dealers' weapon of choice (.22). I did not know that it proved, later, to have been a toy. I wanted, more than anything, someone to render this kid harmless whilst I shooed the class away and joined them in the safety of the gym.
America does, of course have a lot of issues because guns are so readily available. Perhaps their police should have non-lethal deterrents available. I offer this for what it is worth.
Personal experience; I was crossing the playground to the gym block, accompanying a class of girls (aged 10/11)ready to get changed after break when I was confronted by one of our pupils (14) pointing a 'gun' at me. (He was in isolation because of bad behaviour and so took his break when others were back in class.) I knew this boy, that his brother was often drugged-up, that he had been caught with small quantities of cannabis and that his family dealt in a big way. (Yes we told the police and eventually they got them.) I also knew that, although small, the gun could have been the local dealers' weapon of choice (.22). I did not know that it proved, later, to have been a toy. I wanted, more than anything, someone to render this kid harmless whilst I shooed the class away and joined them in the safety of the gym.
America does, of course have a lot of issues because guns are so readily available. Perhaps their police should have non-lethal deterrents available. I offer this for what it is worth.
I have a Beretta F92 CO2 pistol. It's a 'toy' that can be owned by anyone over 16 years. It is identical in looks to a real gun apart from a lanyard loop at the base of the handle. If I waved my particular 'toy' around in a public place I would fully expect to be shot dead. All armed officers are well trained in recognition of guns but some toys are very realistic. Also to not throw down when an armed officer demands you to is suicide.
chilldoubt; // To even hit an arm, leg or shoulder at as close a range as 10 metres in that scenario would have been more luck than judgement.//
Is that a theory of yours, or is it based on any evidence?
The person on AB who seems to know most about weapons is shoota, though he hasn't appeared on this thread. I would have thought from a distance of 10 metres anyone qualified to use a gun, should have the ability to wound without killing their target. Two shots at thigh level would most certainly have disarmed him.
Is that a theory of yours, or is it based on any evidence?
The person on AB who seems to know most about weapons is shoota, though he hasn't appeared on this thread. I would have thought from a distance of 10 metres anyone qualified to use a gun, should have the ability to wound without killing their target. Two shots at thigh level would most certainly have disarmed him.
chilldoubt; // To even hit an arm, leg or shoulder at as close a range as 10 metres in that scenario would have been more luck than judgement.//
Is that a theory of yours, or is it based on any evidence?
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Yes Khandro, first hand. Thousands of 9mm rounds fired from a Browning on various ranges throughout my time in HM Forces, not to mention WIS Northern Ireland 'jollys'.
In that situation, if you could hit a kid in the leg/arm with a pistol with your first shot from 10-15 metres whilst expecting one to come back at you, you'd be either very, very lucky or the greatest shot in the world.
Is that a theory of yours, or is it based on any evidence?
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Yes Khandro, first hand. Thousands of 9mm rounds fired from a Browning on various ranges throughout my time in HM Forces, not to mention WIS Northern Ireland 'jollys'.
In that situation, if you could hit a kid in the leg/arm with a pistol with your first shot from 10-15 metres whilst expecting one to come back at you, you'd be either very, very lucky or the greatest shot in the world.
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Shooting to wound only occurs in films and TV.
Guns issued to US (and other) police officers are lethal weapons intended to be used for lethal outcomes - if you want a non-lethal outcome you must use non-lethal weaponry designed for that purpose, such as the Taser.
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Guns issued to US (and other) police officers are lethal weapons intended to be used for lethal outcomes - if you want a non-lethal outcome you must use non-lethal weaponry designed for that purpose, such as the Taser.
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I am gormless
PLease educate me
is this right.... a kid brandishing a fake pistol was shot yestderday in St Louis. BUT in another town Ferguson ( are they far from each other ?) another kid was shot some time ago and it is THAT case the Grand jury has refused to indict ?
My brain hurts
( so we can do it all again when the st Louis case comes up in a year or so ?
I thought empanelling a Grand Jury within 24 h was a bit quick even for the land of the free )
PLease educate me
is this right.... a kid brandishing a fake pistol was shot yestderday in St Louis. BUT in another town Ferguson ( are they far from each other ?) another kid was shot some time ago and it is THAT case the Grand jury has refused to indict ?
My brain hurts
( so we can do it all again when the st Louis case comes up in a year or so ?
I thought empanelling a Grand Jury within 24 h was a bit quick even for the land of the free )
mikey4444
/// Well, lets hope there aren't any little boys left in America playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians anymore, like I did. Or at the very least, I hope that they check that there aren't any Police around first. ///
Times have changed since you or I played cowboys and Indians, why it even offends some if one wears a headdress of feathers these days.
Like I am always saying "it never happened in my day"
/// Two armed Policemen against one unarmed little boy...he never had a chance. ///
We are not talking about a little English boy sitting on a swing with a pop gun here, but what we are talking about is a very violent country where guns are freely available and are used with deadly effect each and every day.
What would have been your reaction had you been placed in such a situation, gone up to the boy and said "come on Johnny, now hand over that gun like a good boy"?
I am sure there are many a American cop lying six foot down for not reacting in a decisive and positive way.
/// Well, lets hope there aren't any little boys left in America playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians anymore, like I did. Or at the very least, I hope that they check that there aren't any Police around first. ///
Times have changed since you or I played cowboys and Indians, why it even offends some if one wears a headdress of feathers these days.
Like I am always saying "it never happened in my day"
/// Two armed Policemen against one unarmed little boy...he never had a chance. ///
We are not talking about a little English boy sitting on a swing with a pop gun here, but what we are talking about is a very violent country where guns are freely available and are used with deadly effect each and every day.
What would have been your reaction had you been placed in such a situation, gone up to the boy and said "come on Johnny, now hand over that gun like a good boy"?
I am sure there are many a American cop lying six foot down for not reacting in a decisive and positive way.
AOG - "What would have been your reaction had you been placed in such a situation, gone up to the boy and said "come on Johnny, now hand over that gun like a good boy"?"
I doubt the exchange would have been that patronising - more likely 'Drop your weapon or I will open fire ...'.
It's easy to take facts from this situation - the age of the child (how cold that looks, to know we are comenting on the death of a child) his physical size, the appearence of his toy gun, and so on, but none of us know the true facts involved.
So we must wait until proper evidence is available before we all jump to conclusions - that behaviour is what has sparked the ongoing riots.
I doubt the exchange would have been that patronising - more likely 'Drop your weapon or I will open fire ...'.
It's easy to take facts from this situation - the age of the child (how cold that looks, to know we are comenting on the death of a child) his physical size, the appearence of his toy gun, and so on, but none of us know the true facts involved.
So we must wait until proper evidence is available before we all jump to conclusions - that behaviour is what has sparked the ongoing riots.
2012[edit]
For 2012, the Officer Down Memorial Page records 120 deaths in the line of duty.[4] The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund counted 127 federal, state and local officers to have been killed in 2012.
and
In the United States, annual deaths resulting from firearms total
2011: 32,16318
2010: 31,67219
2009: 31,347
by comparison for the UK 2011: 146
2010: 165
2009: 150
Figures look about right - ( 600 murders in total last yr E+W)
For 2012, the Officer Down Memorial Page records 120 deaths in the line of duty.[4] The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund counted 127 federal, state and local officers to have been killed in 2012.
and
In the United States, annual deaths resulting from firearms total
2011: 32,16318
2010: 31,67219
2009: 31,347
by comparison for the UK 2011: 146
2010: 165
2009: 150
Figures look about right - ( 600 murders in total last yr E+W)
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