On Holocaust Memorial Day, Why Aren't The German People As A Whole Left With The Same Stigma That British And American People Are Over Slavery?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/11370854/Holocaust-Memorial-Day-survivors-return-to-Auschwitz.html

[ponkle]

Has anybody read the book by Hugh Thomas,
The slave Trade,The History of the Atlantic Slave Tradee 1440-1870

[Philoctetes]

I suspect there are a couple of different factors in play here. Firstly, there is the fact that, as SP pointed out, though slavery was "abolished" after the Civil War, the attitudes inherent in it were still prevalent in law until the 60s, and are still to be seen socially widely across the States. This is embarrassing to many, particularly in the high profile areas such as NY and Cal. And it is easier to express that embarrassment in the context of history than current affairs. Then there is the "Protestant" background on which the US was founded - for which read a strong dose of religious hypocrisy! There is a strong thread of the idea that "repentance" makes everything right - so you can carry on sinning again. In the UK, the ethich has tended to be "OK, you're sorry, now don't do it again". Perhaps a simplification, but relevant, I feel

[jim360]

It's possible, too, that part of the reason is that Germany has already "atoned for its sins" -- the end of the war saw the country devastated and millions of its citizens dead, and many of the chief individual perpetrators of the atrocities were subsequently brought to justice. None of that ever happened with regard to slavery. It was rather more quietly dropped, the slave traders and owners moved on with their lives.

Then there is the fact that slavery as a trade existed for centuries, and the Holocaust lasted less than a decade. I don't entirely agree that slavery's social consequences lived on and the holocaust's haven't -- not least because both ended up with many millions dead, and antisemitism still exists -- but there are substantial differences between the two, especially in terms of the immediate aftermath.

[sp1814]

I think that's a very reasonable couple of posts jim360, and I think the effects of Holocaust will reverberate for some time...

[naomi24]

sp, //it is incorrect to think that slavery was abolished hundreds of years ago an was that...and it's equally false to think that the Jim Crow laws were abolished 50 years ago and that was that.//

No one has suggested that. Change takes time, but the US now has a black president so I think that’s an indication that life is moving on.

[andy-hughes]

I'd agree with sp re. the posts from jim360 - I think there is a degree of 'apples and oranges' in trying to equate the Holocaust and slavery - the two differ widely in all aspects, except the examples they set us of just how cruel mankind can me.

[jim360]

I've actually only made one post in this thread (prior to this one) and I think the "second" is Philoctetes above, which I was partly but not completely agreeing with.

[Gromit]

I would just like to reassure AOG and Naomi, that they should feel no stigma or beat themselves up about our slavery past.

It was not your fault, no one is blaming you.

[naomi24]

Thank you Gromit. I can only speak for myself of course, but coming from you that is indeed very reassuring.

[sp1814]

Yeah...God only knows why people are getting themselves twisted up about something that is not their fault.

[naomi24]

sp, what a shame! You've abandoned a good discussion to join Gromit's nonsensical little bandwagon. Oh well....

[anotheoldgit]

Gromit

/// I would just like to reassure AOG and Naomi, that they should feel no stigma or beat themselves up about our slavery past. ///

/// It was not your fault, no one is blaming you. ///

Thank you for that Gromit, I agree it was not my fault, but it wears down on one when certain modern day criticisms are made regarding some black attitudes, and the usual excuses are wheeled out, that it is down to the lack of opportunities, poor housing conditions, the high unemployment among some blacks, and finely it almost always harks back to the days of slavery and how they were treated by whites.

[sp1814]

naomi24

It wasn't really a sensible discussion.

I was making points and you were accusing me of all sorts.

That's not 'a sensible discussion'.

[naomi24]

sp, what on earth are you talking about? "of all sorts"? What all sorts? I'm beginning to think you're right. This hasn't been a sensible discussion.

[sp1814]

AOG

I think we are all tired of hackneyed old excuses - I myself am weary (and indeed wary) of those people who try to claim that black people are genetically intellectually inferior to white people, by pointing out studies on IQ levels which have been widely discredited.

I suppose we all have these little irritations. It's best to just put it down to varying levels of ignrance when it comes to matters of race.

Incidentally - I had no idea it was Holocaust Memorial Day.

In fact, I'd never even heard of it before...which is quite shameful.

[sp1814]

naomi24

You said I was looking for an apology.

You said, "What else was I looking for?"

You were basically saying that I was demanding some sort of 'mea culpa'.

I would strongly suggest that is not the case.

[naomi24]

I wasn’t ‘basically’ saying anything of the sort. You’ve imagined that.

[ludwig]

Everyone should probably just apologise to everyone else for anything bad any ancestors of theirs may have done to any ancestors of anyone else at any point between the start of recorded history and the present day.

Get all the apologies over in one go, so we can get back to doing bad things in the here and now that our descendants will later have to apologise for.

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

/// Incidentally - I had no idea it was Holocaust Memorial Day. ///

/// In fact, I'd never even heard of it before...which is quite shameful. ///

Perhaps the reason is that it is a kind of time line, seeing that it is 70 years since the camp was liberated.

[Snafu03]

aren't the extreme left still fond of banding the Nazi slur around at anyone who disagrees with their ideology?