ChatterBank1 min ago
Election Campaign
I’m sick of all this chauvinist electioneering - and look forward to the relief when it's all over. I know who I intend to vote for and probably most other readers do also. What matters is that minorities learn to live with majority decisions.
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I find it slightly surprising that UKIP's raison d'etre, leaving the EU, is all the way down on page 71 -- although I suppose it does make sense really, trying to sell themselves as a more varied party.
So far I've only skimmed the manifesto, which in itself is more than I was intending. UKIP has no chance of winning in my constituency, and as I'm planning to vote tactically policies don't matter anyway.
I find it slightly surprising that UKIP's raison d'etre, leaving the EU, is all the way down on page 71 -- although I suppose it does make sense really, trying to sell themselves as a more varied party.
So far I've only skimmed the manifesto, which in itself is more than I was intending. UKIP has no chance of winning in my constituency, and as I'm planning to vote tactically policies don't matter anyway.
Page 71, Naomi.
"A referendum on Membership
"UKIP believes British citizens should have an in/ out referendum on membership of the EU as soon as possible. Our question of choice will be
"'Do you wish Britain to be a free, independent, sovereign democracy?'"
It then goes on to set some limits about campaign funds, etc., calling for balance in the debate, and discussing what would follow a "yes" vote.
Like I said, though, there is no chance that their choice of question will last long. Far too loaded. More likely to be a simpler "Should the UK leave the EU?", mirroring the Scotland Referendum, and then UKIP would have to rely on the positive message "yes" to boost their campaign.
"A referendum on Membership
"UKIP believes British citizens should have an in/ out referendum on membership of the EU as soon as possible. Our question of choice will be
"'Do you wish Britain to be a free, independent, sovereign democracy?'"
It then goes on to set some limits about campaign funds, etc., calling for balance in the debate, and discussing what would follow a "yes" vote.
Like I said, though, there is no chance that their choice of question will last long. Far too loaded. More likely to be a simpler "Should the UK leave the EU?", mirroring the Scotland Referendum, and then UKIP would have to rely on the positive message "yes" to boost their campaign.
Jim, your link isn't working for me, but since I'm aware that Nigel Farage has advised the electorate in constituencies where Ukip has no chance of success to vote Conservative I suspect that the reference to a referendum relates to Ukip's support of the Conservative's election promise. I've looked at the Ukip website and can see no reference whatsoever to Ukip offering a referendum. “Out of Europe” is their primary objective so offering a referendum would be just silly.
Let us not forget that the Labour Party has the most topsy-turvy attitude to the EU. In 1967 Wilson said, "We will not take no for an answer."
Five years later they voted wholesale against joining. Two years later they proposed a renegotiation of the terms of entry, to be put to a referendum. Following their election victory in 1974 and some minor cosmetic details they held a referendum campaigning to stay in, which they won.
Eight years later part of their manifesto was withdrawal from the EEC, as it would hinder the creation of a socialist Britain. Some would argue that the rejection of Labour in 1983 was a ringing endorsement of the EEC, whereas the real question was, "Do you want Britain to be ruled by Brussels or Michael Foot?"
Even I would have voted Brussels at that particular moment.
Five years later they voted wholesale against joining. Two years later they proposed a renegotiation of the terms of entry, to be put to a referendum. Following their election victory in 1974 and some minor cosmetic details they held a referendum campaigning to stay in, which they won.
Eight years later part of their manifesto was withdrawal from the EEC, as it would hinder the creation of a socialist Britain. Some would argue that the rejection of Labour in 1983 was a ringing endorsement of the EEC, whereas the real question was, "Do you want Britain to be ruled by Brussels or Michael Foot?"
Even I would have voted Brussels at that particular moment.
Well, then try this link then -- from their own site. The promise for a referendum is a) in black and white and b) makes no reference to the Conservatives. This is UKIP's manifesto promise.
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Surely a majority UKIP government (ie NOT a coalition) is as good as a referendum result?
If it's in the manifesto and you vote for it, then your opinion has been expressed and you should not need to repeat the exercise at a referendum.
Therefore, including a referendum pledge, on page 71, is a way of admitting that they are never going to be the elected majority party: it is a long term policy aim which would only be necessary because the 2015 results show they _have not _ won outright. Covering all the bases, as the saying has it.
If it's in the manifesto and you vote for it, then your opinion has been expressed and you should not need to repeat the exercise at a referendum.
Therefore, including a referendum pledge, on page 71, is a way of admitting that they are never going to be the elected majority party: it is a long term policy aim which would only be necessary because the 2015 results show they _have not _ won outright. Covering all the bases, as the saying has it.
I don't agree that a vote for UKIP is as good as a referendum result. I happen to know at least one UKIP voter, and she's doing it primarily because she doesn't like her Conservative MP. Obviously one voters out of millions isn't brilliant, but serves to illustrate the point. There are other reasons to vote UKIP -- and general elections can't be about just one issue. Which is why their manifesto has 75 other pages.
And besides, if now UKIP does win a majority in Parliament (with doesn't mean a majority of thepopular vote, of course), having promised a new brand of politics, how would it look if their first act was to ignore a blatant manifesto promise and withdraw without an absolute majority support? Awful -- triggering major constitutional crises and risking the UK into the bargain -- never mind the slaughtering they would get at the election following.
UKIP are right to offer a referendum.
And besides, if now UKIP does win a majority in Parliament (with doesn't mean a majority of thepopular vote, of course), having promised a new brand of politics, how would it look if their first act was to ignore a blatant manifesto promise and withdraw without an absolute majority support? Awful -- triggering major constitutional crises and risking the UK into the bargain -- never mind the slaughtering they would get at the election following.
UKIP are right to offer a referendum.
I was going to go on but hit enter too soon:
"UKIP are right to offer a referendum. But if they didn't want to hold one, they've now trapped themselves into doing so. More likely it'll just be something to try and negotiate in the next coalition, though -- but then if you don't quite trust Cameron to keep his referendum pledge, maybe a vote for UKIP is a good way to force this issue?"
"UKIP are right to offer a referendum. But if they didn't want to hold one, they've now trapped themselves into doing so. More likely it'll just be something to try and negotiate in the next coalition, though -- but then if you don't quite trust Cameron to keep his referendum pledge, maybe a vote for UKIP is a good way to force this issue?"
@jim360
"and she's doing it primarily because she doesn't like her Conservative MP."
I respectfully suggest that she reads the full UKIP manifesto because her 'protest' is, effectively, endorsing it - ALL of it.
The nearest thing I have to a conscience is the thought "what if millions of others acted the way I am about to?" (in this example, F'raj would be, smugly, waving his "massive mandate" around).
This country desperately needs a way to register protest votes in such a way as to convey messages as complex as "I support this party but not this candidate and not parties/candidates 2-9 inclusive)". Spoilt ballot is all we have and it just makes the voter seem incoherent or not taking the process as seriously as it deserves.
NOTA option, asap, please.
"and she's doing it primarily because she doesn't like her Conservative MP."
I respectfully suggest that she reads the full UKIP manifesto because her 'protest' is, effectively, endorsing it - ALL of it.
The nearest thing I have to a conscience is the thought "what if millions of others acted the way I am about to?" (in this example, F'raj would be, smugly, waving his "massive mandate" around).
This country desperately needs a way to register protest votes in such a way as to convey messages as complex as "I support this party but not this candidate and not parties/candidates 2-9 inclusive)". Spoilt ballot is all we have and it just makes the voter seem incoherent or not taking the process as seriously as it deserves.
NOTA option, asap, please.
@jim360
as we all know, there is no-one harder to convince than the recently converted. Nobody wants to be seen to change their mind twice in quick succession; smacks of desperation.
Other than that, I wanted to add that there are "proper channels" for complaining about the candidate, without being unfaithful to the party (too laye, in this case). If more people wrote to Tory Central Office (or other party equivalent), which you are at liberty to do *outside of election years*, in order to register their complaints, the less we'd have to squander votes, trying to make a point.
as we all know, there is no-one harder to convince than the recently converted. Nobody wants to be seen to change their mind twice in quick succession; smacks of desperation.
Other than that, I wanted to add that there are "proper channels" for complaining about the candidate, without being unfaithful to the party (too laye, in this case). If more people wrote to Tory Central Office (or other party equivalent), which you are at liberty to do *outside of election years*, in order to register their complaints, the less we'd have to squander votes, trying to make a point.
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