Emergency Summit.

[tonyav]

The Italian prime minister calls for an emergency European summit.
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/italian-pm-calls-for-emergency-summit-as-up-to-700-migrants-drown/ar-AAbkaCl

[jim360]

I can't say I remember ever calling anyone a racist bigot.

But svejk, you are confusing two groups of people. There are those entering Libya to take advantage of the chaos. There are also people leaving, fleeing that same chaos. To paint them as the same sort of people is utterly wrong. The same as tarring the refugees fleeing Syria with the same brush as the people going over there to fight for or against Assad/ ISIS/ both.

I can't believe anyone seriously thinks that people looking for a good fight in Libya would then promptly leave the country again. No, you are mixing up two entirely different groups. An awful mistake, and just an excuse to turn our backs on the problem.

[mikey4444]

Stick to your guns Jim !

[jim360]

Perhaps an unfortunate turn of phrase, given the calls from some quarters for using gunboats, but thanks for the sentiment.

[mikey4444]

You are welcome Jim !

[Svejk]

That's not what I'm saying. Most of these migrants aren't Libyans, they are people who have travelled to Libya. You claimed they were fleeing the civil war in Libya. They are, as I said, taking advantage of the breakdown of society there to use it as a staging post, for which, I'd agree, we are responsible (partly).

[naomi24]

Jim, //There's fundamentally no point in making it harder for them to get here unless we also make it easier for them to stay where they are at the moment.//

How do you suggest we do that – and how many countries do we need to stabilize and provide an acceptable infrastructure for to ensure that people won’t want to leave their homes? They are not only coming from North Africa – they’re coming from east and west too. There are millions who would like to take the same path - and many of them will end up in Calais trying to hitch a lift into this country. It’s all very well taking the high moral ground, but what’s the practical solution?

Mikey, same question to you.

[retrocop]

//Yet in 2013, 30 per cent of asylum requests were rejected, and Lupo, whose job it is to make sure the system serves the right people, wearily reels off the preferred fictions by nation. "Nigerians will say they are a Christian who wants to marry a Muslim, or they're homosexual, or they're fleeing police brutality." The day before we met she was brought in to explain to a group of Gambians what an asylum request entailed. They said they were here for work. When she explained they would not get permission, they asked her to invent a story for them. She knows lawyers who would, for a fee.//

For those bleeding heart Labour supporters whose government created this crisis please do not show your naivety that Europe has the responsibility to give succour to all these desperate immigrants. As stated they come from
East and West Africa with a variety of jackanory's as to why they flee their "war torn countries" Senegal hardly appears on the radar screen as a conflict zone but surprise.So many turn up on Europe's doorstep to take advantage of Labours largesse. That is why the French have Sangatte and blame us for indirectly creating it.By us I mean of course the Blairites.
The above extract came from a very long but mouth dropping article from the Independent which was kindly provided by tonyav on another OP. That is why I posted an extract but will post the whole article.
tonyav. I am surprised you have the audacity to post an interesting news item in the ....errr News section. Has not aog been castigated twice for doing this.? Our ABer ,the mouthpiece of all who are too timid to have differing views has told us that "we are leading up to a General Election. Indeed interesting times ahead and shouldn't post anything other than election news because the rest of us are so interested in politics. Word to the wise old chap. I believe you might be allowed to throw the odd story about paedophilia or daft Americans.
I will get that link. :-)

[jim360]

I'm under no illusions that the task is somehow easy -- or even doable for that matter, in any reasonable time scale. But equally just shutting up shop and hoping people will give up trying to come here is no solution either. Given the choice, it seems worth at least trying the "moral high ground" solution, or perhaps some fusion of both, where we try to control the EU's borders better while also making a greater effort to improve the lot of Africans.

[retrocop]

Full link story mentioned on my last post. Very long.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/what-happens-to-african-migrants-once-they-land-in-italy-during-the-summer-9681473.html

[naomi24]

Jim, curing the problems of umpteen African countries is utterly impossible. Common sense must tell you that.

//just shutting up shop and hoping people will give up trying to come here is no solution//

It’s the only solution. There is no viable alternative.

[jim360]

Yes, I'd say it is impossible. I just don't see that this is a reason to not bother trying. We may even be surprised.

We have a very different definition of "solution", it seems. For myself I don't see it as at all a solution if it only makes a difference for us here. Any solution, in my book, has to include improving, or trying to improve, things for the people who are making such a treacherous journey.

[mushroom25]

but how would you improve the lot of africans jim? is throwing money at incompetent governments the answer? if these tin-pot regimes can acquire funding from "the rich", where's the incentive for them to engage with their populations and provide for them?

[naomi24]

Mushroom, //but how would you improve the lot of africans jim? //

I asked Jim and Mikey that question. I've yet to receive an answer from either.

[retrocop]

Europe has been throwing financial aid and charity to Africa for years and they still can't find their own drinking water.All we do is give them money to buy kalashnikovs to fight their own tribal squabbles and then we have to pick up the pieces it seems.
Saudi and Jordan's Air Force is currently bombing ISIS because of the threat it presents and the resultant refugees it creates. Why shouldn't they be the ones to provide succour and aid to their next door neighbours.
Perhaps their welfare system is not as generous as Europes.Perhaps that's why they are rich and some of Europe are in a financial crisis.
',t

[jim360]

You will be waiting a long time for an answer, Naomi. I don't have one -- nor do I have the time to think it through. And nor would it matter anyway, who's going to listen to me on this?

For my own satisfaction it's enough that we recognise what the problem is. Let the people who are in a position to do something about it come up with a solution. I don't see why I should have to.

[Svejk]

One result of the aid we have sent to Africa has been population explosions of staggering proportions. Which, of course, have exacerbated the problems.

[naomi24]

Jim, So your high flying notions have nothing to support them. No surprise there!

[jim360]

I don't think that it's all that unusual, though. NJ over on another thread has proposed ending Schengen -- which is even more unworkable. Politics in general, as well as AB, is full of people who can recognise a problem without being able to propose a solution.

I don't accept that my position is all that different from anyone else's on this, at least in terms of feasibility.

[retrocop]

Svejk
It looks like ISIS have found a way to control the population explosion as well.Especially if you are a Christian.

[retrocop]

Jim
If Schengen is abandoned it will create further barriers for immigrants to cross.It might discourage them from heading to Europe by the boatload. As it is they can wander right through Europe from the South to Calais and beyond.(us) without checks or controls.