Greece

[redvanman]

The Greeks want the rest of the EU to keep them what a big Greek cheek

[TheChair]

Thanks for your in depth analysis.

[Old_Geezer]

They do seem to have an odd view of the situation.

They change their policy, they get the inevitable result of that, and then complain other folk are not being fair forcing them to do what they have decided not to. What they need to realise is that any decision has consequences. No one is going to say, "Oh you don't like what we consider was a fair offer, and want us to give more: oh ok, whatever you want have as much as you like."

As far as I see it no one is blackmailing the Greeks to do what they don't want to do, they are simply saying we will help this far but we are not a blank cheque, we don't have to accept all the demands of those asking for help.

I don't have the expertise to analyse the situation and see who could shift and who not, or how equitable the present offer is, but it seems to me the Greek officials doth protest too much. They make a decision backed by the Greek voters, they cope with the consequences of it.

[cassa333]

It starts off on a small scale and escalates to the size of a country.

Nothing different than is happening in our own welfare system.

[Peter Pedant]

yes Cassa it is - be serious

we are not in Europe with a begging bowl
we are not not saying lend us more as going under will be much worse - but otherwise there is no case for lending
we havent closed the banks for a week
we havent booted the finance minister out because he's a prat - oops thats not a bad idea actually

he ( the finance minister ) isnt going around boasting that he has driven the Geek economy into a wall and he will bear his badge with pride

[ichkeria]

The combination of a "low tax" (black) , high-welfare economy, a splurge of borrowing pre-2008 when the rates were favourable, and of course now being tied to a common currency, have led to a certain position, exacerbated by the new government, which was elected on a mandate to "stop austerity".
The current impasse was wholly predictable.
Greece won't leave the EU, but it faces a choice of two evils: work out a deal with the EU and the banks which will inevitably lead to more cuts and hardship, or use a currency of their own which will devalue and destroy the wealth of everyone who has euro, and long term take the country back to a position many wanted originally wanted to get away from i.e. ploughing their own increasingly unsustainable furrow.
While one understands the (mistaken) view of many that their country is being "dictated to", when one reads banners that say "Put the EU bankers in jail" or similar, it is slightly breathtaking. If I borrowed vast sums of money from someone, refused to work out a sensible repayment plan, and then suggested that my creditor was a criminal who was destroying me and that I should be banged up, I don't think I would attract much sympathy.

[ichkeria]

that "he" should be banged up of course (!)

[Khandro]

Just read the CV of the new finance minister, very impressive! He's also like the one they've booted out, a millionaire, but I guess most finance ministers are, e.g. Osborne, but I shan't hold that too much against him. He is a "grown-up" which will please Christine Lagarde, and he certainly won't be calling his EU counterparts "terrorists".

[anotheoldgit]

Ironically it was Margaret Thatcher's defiant opposition to a single currency, that led to her downfall.

/// Margaret Thatcher’s act of lonely but heroic defiance led directly to her downfall. Her opposition to the single currency provoked the resignation of Geoffrey Howe from the Cabinet, and then the leadership challenge of Michael Heseltine, forcing her resignation within weeks. ///

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3151687/PETER-OBORNE-Greek-horror-wouldn-t-happening-Europe-listened-Maggie.html

[-Talbot-]

Not a question, just an opinion then...smashing.

[Marshwarble]

Maybe the contribution to art, literature and science they've decided to sit on their ass for a while?

[atalanta]

As I have said elsewhere, the Greeks want to live on other people's money.
I wish I could do that.
But, aside from that - there is an issue nobody has yet mentioned. I thought that every country going into the Euro had to hand over their gold-and-dollar reserves to the central bank. ( Which is one big reason the UK didn't want to join the Euro, and another reason for our selling off some gold reserves under the Brown/labour government). So, if Greece did hand over gold-and-dollar reserves, do they now get a refund if they leave the Euro ?

[ichkeria]

I think that issue has Ben mentioned.
Given that they would be leaving the euro with unpaid debts then I doubt it :-)

[mushroom25]

//Given that they would be leaving the euro with unpaid debts then I doubt it :-) //

in which case, what commodity would the greeks use to back their currency? or would they need to dollarize to keep themselves going?

[ichkeria]

That article by Peter Oborne posted by AOG is a classic example of the unholy alliance of the EuroSceptic British right and the 'socialist' Greek govt who Oborne praises for its 'bold' decision to hold a referendum which in actual fact was nothing of the sort.
People like Oborne will try to see in this crisis an example of how a country can 'stand up to' the 'laughably incompetent' and 'dictatorial' EU
And of course if Maggie had had her way blah blah blah all would have been different. Certainly that is true, but it's a bit like saying that if plans for a community centre had only been shelved then arsonists would never have had the chance to burn it down! The arsonists here being the Greeks, who I don't want to brand criminals of course but by analogy only: their economy is way out on a limb for reasons discussed earlier

[ukbod2015]

The irresponsibility of those people and their government is staggering - how can you keep paying yourself money you havent got.

[ichkeria]

I don't really know mushroom.
There was talk of a dual currency but as I've said before I don't understand economics. Though that doesn't seem to be a handicap if you want to be a Greek finance minister :-)

[Gromit]

The Greeks have had 5 years of austerity, and it clearly isn't working.

The austerity has just brought perpetual recession and stagnation of the economy. While the economy withers and dies, the chances of it paying off its debts become less and less.

That vicious circle needs to be broken. Even the IMF are beginning to see that, warning last week that allowing Greece to slip into bankruptcy would mean the money would never be repaid.

Large amounts of the debt will have to be deferred or written off. That is the only chance to get some of the money back. It will be better to get half the money back rather than none of it.

[ToraToraTora]

Gromit, get real, only 30% of due taxation is paid F\F\S, no wonder they have made no impact during austerity because they haven't been doing "austerity", Ireland/Spain etc have done it and they are recovering. The OP is bang on the bubbles want the rest of the Eurozone to keep them end of. Boot the toe rags out. Scrounging lowlives.

[Garaman]

I read elsewhere someone recommending that the committee should thank Greece for any renewed offer and say that they would put it to a referendum across the whole of the Euro countries to see if it should be accepted. That would seem fair to me, but the only bit I would add to make it very fair is that when doing so they should also strongly recommend that we don’t accept it.