Wine Off The Menu For A Meal Between Presidents

[lindapalmara]

Clash of cultures! Hollande standing up for French values! If he came to the UK we would have burka clad women lining the route

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3419814/Lunch-French-Iranians-CANCELLED-President-Hollande-refused-wine-menu-meeting-Muslim-counterpart-Rouhani.html

[retrocop]

Well good for Hollande. Sacre Bleu. A repast without wine unheard of in France. I suspect the Iranian would of managed quite happily with mineral water whilst others imbibed their wine.
After all if the Iranians want to come back into the civilised world and hobnob with the west there will surely be many more banquets at high level where wine will be served. When in Rome as they say!

[andy-hughes]

I am absolutely in favour of the courtesy of allowing for the personal feelings and religious obsevances of others. If I am dining with a vegetarian, I will ask if they are comfortable with me eating a meat dish, because that is simple courtesy.

So, as I see it, the Iranian party should have no issue with wine being available and drunk at the meal - perhaps, again as a courtesy, President Hollande could politely enquire if his guest was comfortable with wine being drunk at the table - and he could reasonably expect the affirmative response, because courtesy operates a two-way street.

If there is serious issues in the matter of wine being on the table, then this should be discussed between the two leaders' 'people' and resolved accordingly.

If I was the French president, I would think there are far more essential items on which to dig my heals in, rather than simple cultural differences over alcohol.

[Mamyalynne]

If they can't come to a reasonable agreement about a lunch menu, then what hope is there on important issues?

[andy-hughes]

An excellent point Mamyalynne.

I remember peace talks between the Americans and the North Vietnamese being stalled because neither side could agree on the shape of the table they were going to sit round!

Posturing and 'peeing' contests have no place when lives are at stake.

[retrocop]

A mountain out of a molehill. The diplomacy is a highly tuned organisation even in the Arab world

[andy-hughes]

I agree retrocop.

You don't get to the level of diplomatic interaction involved here without understanding what the word 'compromise' means - and where and when it is appropriate to employ it.

[viv41]

Good for him. So just LOOKING at wine upsets this person ?!

[andy-hughes]

viv41 - //Good for him. So just LOOKING at wine upsets this person ?! //

I don't think that is the case at all.

It's another instance of trying to avoid offence, even though the potential is not actually there in the first place.

It's the sort of action conceived by people who are so right-on that they are unable to function in a world of mature thinking adults who don't believe the world has to turn on their say-so.

[jno]

"President Hassan Rouhani has been on a tour of Europe, signing billions of pounds worth of business deals with different nations, after economic sanctions against the country were lifted."

I wonder how many of those contracts will now go France's way. I wonder if French businesses that miss out will be hailing Hollande's decision that it's wine or nothing.

[viv41]

Thank you andy, I stand by what I said.

[Ellipsis]

> The French insisted on serving local food and wine but the Iranians demanded a halal menu in keeping with their Muslim faith.
Hollande's officials said preparing the meal to be 'Iran friendly' went against France's republican values.

The wine isn't really the issue - take it or leave it. The issue is the non-halal food ...

[woofgang]

yup, its a peeing contest...making a public fuss like this is just rude and stupid.

[woofgang]

are the French saying there is NO locally produced halal food anywhere in France?

[retrocop]

I used to be involved in many state visits and government official visits in the UK. I have worked with Government hospitality and Diplomatic. It is perfectly accepted within all the countries I have been involved with for heads of state/government to bring their own cooks with them.Believe me there have been Muslim cooks in the kitchens of BP cooking for their Principle alongside the Queen's head chef. If the Queen went to Paris for a banquet and didn't like poisson because,like her mother,feared she would choke on a bone then the Queen would be served an alternative. It is not rocket science. My wife and I were invited to a reeption at the Chinese Embassy and the Premiere bought his own Chef with him.

[New Judge]

“…perhaps, again as a courtesy, President Hollande could politely enquire if his guest was comfortable with wine being drunk at the table – “

He (or more likely one of his minions) probably did, Andy, and probably received an unfavourable reply. Hence the stand off.

“…and he could reasonably expect the affirmative response, because courtesy operates a two-way street.”

Muslim courtesy does not. Muslims make no accommodation for the customs and requirements of Infidels. Can you imagine if M. Hollande went to dinner in Tehran and asked for a bottle of St. Emilion to wash his dinner down?

This was not a matter for compromise. A compromise would be for those who want it to be served alcohol and those who don’t to be offered alternatives (as it would be if any guests had paricular dietry requirements. The issue here was that alcohol was available and the Iranian response was “we don’t allow it so nor must you when we are at your table”. It was not about dietry requirements it was about religious dogma. There’s no room for compromise with that stance. You either give in or you don't and M. Hollande didn't.

[ludwig]

//

“…perhaps, again as a courtesy, President Hollande could politely enquire if his guest was comfortable with wine being drunk at the table – “

He (or more likely one of his minions) probably did, Andy, and probably received an unfavourable reply. Hence the stand off.

//


I doubt it actually NJ. A more likely scenario is that the french would have recieved notification of the Iranians conditions of attendance up front without asking for them, one of which was obviously - no alcohol to be served to anyone, even through it's just us that don't want to drink it.
Well done to the french for responding with the old 'gallic shrug'.

[New Judge]

Quite possibly, ludwig.

However the matter was raised the issue is the same. "We're in your house but you must stick to our rules".

I don't quite understand this business with Muslims and alcohol. I fully respect their choice not to consume it. But to insist that nobody else does when they are around simply demonstrates the complete lack of compromise and accommodation that the religion displays. After all, none of them here seem too fussed about serving it in their restaurants (when they are making 150% mark up and would probably lose a lot of customers if they were dry).

All the time there is talk of "compromise". Just how do you compromise in such a situation where a number of your guests would like to consume alcohol but a few others will refuse to have it served and consumed in their presence simply on the grounds of religious intolerance?

So the Iranians may take their business elsewhere. Well good luck to them. Except of course that their next stop will probably be here where their ridiculous intransigence may be more readily accommodated.

[andy-hughes]

We must be wary of taking the media spin on this as being a true representation of what has taken place.

The notion that the Muslim party takes umbrage at alcohol being served in their presence is a great one - it panders to a popular media image that Muslims are intolerant, dictatorial, pompous, prickly, thin-skinned, and desirous of control whenever they can get it.

But it may not be an accurate reflection of what has taken place here.

It may well emerge that this cancellation was not quite as obvious and 'sensational' as the media has painted it.

I do not believe that any Muslims who deal regularly with Westerners - especially at the diplomatic levels involved here - would be so touchy about their hosts drinking wine.

We shall see.

[lindapalmara]

Don't forget, these are people who are not used to doing business with the West. They are too used their own insular way of life. There can be no compromise.

[andy-hughes]

lindapalmara - //Don't forget, these are people who are not used to doing business with the West. They are too used their own insular way of life. There can be no compromise. //

That is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.

The average Westerner's (hostile) image of Islam is based on what the media feed us - that they are intransigent, backward-looking, murderous, and all the other labels that the media toss around like confetti.

But I believe we should beware of having fears and prejudices manipulated by a media with a vested interest in keeping the flames fanned.

I freely admit (and have been called out for it!) that my experience of the Muslim faith consists of conversations with my barber, but that still puts me streets ahead of anyone who only gets their perceptions from a manipulative media.