Has David Cameron Come Away From Brussels With Anything Which Has Made You Change Your Mind Over Coming Out Of The Eu?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3455306/Drama-European-leaders-come-agreement-UK-marathon-Brussels-talks-threatened-end-humiliating-defeat-Cameron.html

Perhaps the Editor will conduct another poll, when all the details have been made crystal clear to the voters?

[jourdain2]

Yes it will trt. No, I have not changed my mind about voting 'No' in the referendum. His demands were a pale shadow of what he blustered about achieving and he achieved a pale shadow of them.

There is going to be a lot of scaremongering for the next few months. I would urge people to 'stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood' and have a bit of the belief and courage of our forefathers.

Like New Judge I regard a Brexit into the light of a new (and familiar) dawn - one which we can calculate and prepare for. To remain in Europe is, I very much fear, an uncontrolled slide into the darkness.

[anaxcrosswords]

If we do leave the EU I just hope we go somewhere nice like the Bahamas.

[tonyav]

Exert from a speech from Nige who was in my neck of the woods today, not that I need Nige to convince me to vote out.
http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2016/02/20/ukip-leader-nigel-farage-issues-rallying-cry-to-peoples-army-to-win-no-vote-in-eu-referendum/

[Mamyalynne]

Lynne adds sunscreen to her suitcase.

[tonyav]

Don't forget the Bikini ;-)

[tonyav]

Gorgeous George wasn't to popular today though.
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/eu-negotiations-mass-walk-outs-as-george-galloway-speaks-at-anti-eu-grassroots-out-rally/ar-BBpINyy?li=BBoPRmx

[Gromit]

Cameron has been a weak leader, which is the very reason we are getting a referendum.
Ever since Heath took us into Europe, without a public vote, the Conservative Party has been divided, and almost impossible to lead. Thatcher did it with a huge majority, and Major kept the Party together by sheer hardwork. Then Hague, IDS and Howerd tried to lead a broken Party and failed.
Even after 13 years of Blair/Brown tyranny, the public still could not vote for a Conservative majority, so Cameton led a Government with his hand tied behind his back.
Cameron's early call of a referendum had to be seen as a brave move. Win (with a stay result), then he can he can properly rule and lead a united party (there may have to be some sackings). Lose, and he will have to fight a leadership election and probably lose (watch for Boris' manoeuvring ).
Either way, after the referendum, the leading of the Conservative Party will be clearer and easier for the eventual winner.

[DTCwordfan]

Gromit, much to Mikey's considerable annoyance, I won a small bucket of dosh on the last election result and spread - which, if I remember well, was a Conservative majority and not a mere two or three seats. Funny how, for many, the brain forgets this.

[New Judge]

“The immigration issue is a non sequitur; we'll still have the issue whether we are in and out,…”

Not quite so, DT. At present we cannot refuse entry to any citizens of other EU countries. At the end of 2014-15 there were around 3 million people born elsewhere in the EU now living in the EU. Around 270,000 arrived to settle here in that year alone. Many of them make a positive contribution to the UK. But many more do not. Some take low paid jobs and have their wages topped up (in some cases more than doubled) by the taxpayer. Others kip in the subways in places like Marble Arch and beg on the streets. The UK had absolutely no control over whether these people settled here or not.

“….and some would postulate worse if out as the French would just kick their squatters over the Channel.”

We’ve done this before. See some of my earlier posts which explain the Le Touquet agreement, the investment that the French have made in their Channel ports – particularly Calais – and the conclusion that the Le Touquet Agreement is most unlikely to be revoked.

“The biggest gain is the veto on laws….”

There is no “veto” as such. The UK cannot veto any EU laws. Only if 55% of National Parliaments agree to block legislation will it be discontinued. This means the UK will have to enlist the support of 15 other nations to scupper any measures it disagrees with. Quite why this has been “well received” is unclear. The UK is consistently outvoted in the EU Parliament and more than 80% of the measures its MEPs opposed in recent times have been passed. The chances of 15 nations supporting the UK to oppose any measures is quite remote.

Mr Cameron asked for about 50% of what he pledged he would in 2013. He achieved about 10% of that. Some of that is "temporary". Some of it will not take effect for four years. Some of it will fall foul of the European Court of Justice as being discriminatory (after the referendum, natch). He has been shafted. The UK electorate has been shafted. If they are foolish enough to believe they are voting to remain in a “reformed” EU they deserve all they get. Unfortunately those of us not so easily fooled will get the same.

[DTCwordfan]

So let's abandon the 2 million Brits living and working in the EU......brilliant. It's not all one-sided. Talk about being myopic.

[tonyav]

And some are down right dangerous, NJ.

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-news/2016/02/19/illegal-immigrant-caught-with-van-full-of-booze/

[DTCwordfan]

Oh, and break up the UK at the same time as the glorious Nicola and the aromatic Salmond have said 'referendum and we're off if it's a No.' Brilliant.

[Gromit]

DTCWordfan,
Cameron won the last election, but his Party has a massive split down it, making it very unmanageable. This referendum will resolve that one way or another. Cameton will either come out must stronger (and hopefully a better leader) or he will be gone.

[jourdain2]

Has anyone else wondered what , especially unacceptable, is going to crop up this year which has made Cameron so very keen to 'bounce' us into an early referendum?

For a start, there is the 'mutual responsibility' act (or whatever it is called) which means that British firms can have their gas supplies cut off if countries elsewhere in Europe are having difficulties in heating their homes. There will be other things in the pipeline and the Summer will bring another huge resurgence of refugees.

For the sake of our children and their children's children - think! And be suspicious.

[Gromit]

< Cameton will either come out must stronger >

I wonder if the FBI can sort out my iPhone. Should read:

Cameron will either come out much stronger...

[ichkeria]

If the UK were to vote to leave there would be a period of exit negotiations which could last two years. The economic stasis and uncertainty during such a period could well be catastrophic. And don't think we'd be treated with kid gloves. Why would we, as apart from anything else there'd be an understandable reluctance on the part of the EU executive to make our exit look anything to be coveted by other members

[Gromit]

Joudain,
Cameron has always been Pro-EU.

And if we do leave, we will still have the same problem about our energy security with gas from Europe. The vote won't make any difference.

[ichkeria]

Gromit is right: effectively Cameron has been reduced to claiming that just because Polish children back home in Warsaw and Wroclaw will be getting less child benefit from Wojkek and Agnieszka in Warwick, suddenly the EU is for Britain
A bit of an oversimplification, but that's basically it
As I said at the start, the issues are graver than that, as the PM will hopefully soon be concentrating on

[DTCwordfan]

Actually, we could be at more risk to gas supplies by pipeline from anywhere if we say no, though the Connector was set up to favour our exports than taking imports.

[naomi24]

Gromit, // Cameron has been a weak leader, which is the very reason we are getting a referendum. //

That is not the reason we are getting a referendum. Fulfilling an election promise that has every chance of going the wrong way for him is a sign of a strong leader. At least he's putting his money where his mouth is - not something politicians are renowned for. No one can fault him on that.