Innocent until proven guilty vs yob culture

[january_bug]

What are your views on Blair's speech shown on the news last night about "summary justice"?  Is it an ebbing away of our rights, or what is needed to kickstart the battle against yob culture?  What effect do you think "summary justice" will have on the court system?

I'll give you my ideas below, later, when there isn't a queue for the pc!

[puttycake1]

As with most ideas Blair has - it's a vote winner. The point is not to allow yob culture to thrive, then smash the individuals you can actually get hold of, the answer is education (remember that?) which will teach society as a whole to respect and care for everyone because it feels better, not because there is some draconian punishment waiting for those who happen to get caught.

Respect - something Blair bangs on about quite a lot - is a learned process, and a two way street, to get it, you give it, and vice versa. the place to learn this is in the home, although at the moment, that will have to be left until the current generation grow up and can teach it to their children. For now, it is in schools - places where everyone chases targets and league tables, and literacy, numeracy, and respect, are not included because there isn't the time to teach them properly.

Values are learned, not enforced - it will take a generation to pull things around, but since we haven't even started yet, it will take longer than that.

And justice? That's just what happens by coinciddence - like respect - it means different things to different people, and to a worrying large number of the population, it means absolutely nothing at all.

[andy hughes]

I was about to say more or less the same - this is a horse / stable door interface.

It's no use letting society decay and then 'cracking down' on the results - you need to remove the root causes, and as puttycake has so eloquently pointed out, this means all-round education and cultural awareness - which needs to be addressed as a long-term project, not some quick-fix hard-case tough-guy attitude which teaches nothing to anyone.

Education ... education ... education - actually, that would make a good election slogan, and because it's an election slogan, the government can abandon it as soon as the election is over

[Miss Zippy]

I agree; summary justice is not the way to tackle the 'yob culture' problem our society has. It's a lazy response to a very big problem. The root cause is social and moral disintegration - how that is tackled is another matter! To answer your specific questions - yes I think summary justice is a further erosion of our civil liberties. By 'summary justice', Blair is basically proposing on the spot fines for certain (petty) criminal behaviour. Call me cynical, but I think it's more of a revenue raising exercise (as a large percentage of fines flow straight to the Treasury)! The kind of people who indulge in this kind of anti-social behaviour are going to stick two fingers up at any copper who tries to issue them with an on the spot fine of �60/�100  because they have no respect for police or the society in which they live. Having a fair bit of experience of the legal system and the Courts, I believe Magistrates' Court are actually very efficient at dealing with the the minor anti social crimes that Blair's summary justice proposal is meant to address.  It's a red herring to say that summary justice will relieve the Court system, as the system will  still have to call back to Court all those people who do not pay their fines. 

[january_bug]

I agree with the answers so far - wholeheartedly, but as you probably know, it's not my habit to award stars in these "heavier" debates. 

I agree that something needs to be done, but not at the expense of our most basic legal right - the presumtion of innocence. 

Another concern I have *puts economist hat on* is the cost of these "summary justice" fines.  Now, I appreciate what Blair said that PCs can't be bothered with all the paperwork and are under pressure to be back out on the beat, so cases never come to court.  However, slapping fines on people will potentiall result in even more court cases.  If there's one thing petty crims know how to do - it's challenge the courts!  So you fine a guy �50 for urinating in a shop doorway.  He doesn't pay up.  Then what?  You need to write him a letter, or three, then send round a baliffs?  Or as Blair suggested, let him have his day in court, and he has to proove his innocence.  Well that GUARANTEES a court case, with all the expense that comes with it.  If the police DON'T have the evidence, under the current system the court costs are avoided.  Here they are guaranteed.  They're going to need a LOT of people just to unquestioningly pay up the �50 to make up for the people who appeal in court. 

This idea of Blair's (or his advisers or whoever) just doesn't sound thought through to me at all.  As others have said - it's a vote-winner type policy.  In practice, to me, it seems that it will give these yobs a platform to parade their horrible behaviour in the press even further. 

[Miss Zippy]

Just as an aside, if the government is keen on speeding up the criminal court process, it might do better to make more resources available to the Crown Prosecution Service. The criminal court system appears slow not because of pure volume of cases, but more often than not because the CPS takes so long to prepare cases, due to lack of resources. An anverage CPS lawyer will have a caseload of 400-500.  In private practice, a criminal lawyer would (or at least should) have less than half that number of cases on at any one time.

[january_bug]

And it doesn't help that most law graduates are lured into the commercial sphere by �28k starting salaries and the chance to earn over �100k/yr by the age of 30!

Compared with CPS work - well you can see why there aren't enough CPS lawyers.  Offer better salaries, and bring in more laywers, and the whole system might start to move again!

[Ward-Minter]

People are harping on about education. Surely with the advent of the internet and improvement in schools (insofaras OFSTED etc) education has improved.

jan bugster you kniow what I am going to say. Summary Justice?? schmuany schustice. Bring back boot camp and national service, it's the only way.

Further harping on aboout rights???? When people commit crime their rights should be the right to a good kicking and that's it.  If you doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear. An age old adage yes, but soooo true!

jan bug did you see that article about "problem families" being shipped to a privately run "prison village". I wonder what your view on that is. Mine is best thing Blair has ever said.

[andy hughes]

Sorry Ward-Minter - education has not improved since the advent of Ofsted. All that means is that schools are grooming puils to provide target results, and that's not what education - in its truest sense - is about. If the government thought less about comparing schools with each other (for what exactly?) and putting resources into supporting teachers and parents, we'd be on the way towards what puttycake suggested - a rounded system that incorporates pupils as individuals, not tiles on a graph somehwere in the local council offices.

[metagirl]

agree with all comments except for Ward-Minter (sorry!) but as an American I can honestly say that sticking someone with a fine or (in the USA's case) a stint in prison or "juvenile hall" (prison for young offenders) for what you term "antisocial behaviour" does nothing to solve the fundamental problem. Rather, it hardens the offender, making them less receptive to "rehabilitation" in the future and as mentioned, clogs up the courts because people who commit crime do not give two figs about not paying a fine. What could've easily been dealt with the normal route will only be drawn out until all parties are frustrated.

[Oneeyedvic]

ward-minster "if you doing something wrong you have nothing to fear"

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[bernardo]

Ditto to Oneeyedvic and Ward-Minter.

Try telling that to the Guildford 4, the Birmingham 6, Stefan Kiszko etc.
Try telling it to Walter Wolfgang and the other 600 people who were detained at the Labour Party conference.
Try telling it to the trainspotters who got moved on by the police because they were accused of being terrorists.
Try telling it to the cricketer who was going to a cricket match with a cricket bat and was turned back by the police under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act because they said he was taking an offensive weapon to the G8 summit in Edinburgh.
Try telling that to the dozens of innocent muslims who have been detained without charge or trial, most of whom have been released ultimately with no charge, or the thousands of Irish who were interned in the 1970s.

[january_bug]

vic - SERIOUSLY!?!?!?!?!?  Thanks for that.  Dead helpful.  Please don't do that - it's really annoying. 

WM - Haven't see the prison village thing - would be interested to see the link.   :-)  Re education - you forgot the key ingredient that so many forget - good parenting.  Now, aged 22 I know I still have NO IDEA how hard parenting will be, but I at least know that I'll expect my kids back inside by dusk and that I'll encourage them to have hobbies that don't involve trashing cars or scaring grannies.  A lot of parents it seems, couldn't give a t0ss what their kids are up to, and so they get away with murder! 

As for the thing about beating up the crims - I think you're finally beginning to see that I don't have a lot of symapthy for people who are guilty of crime, although I still oppose capital and corporal punishment.  What I do worry about, is miscarriages of justice, and innocent people have their names blackened by incorrect fines/arrests/prison sentences.  I still suggest you read 10 RIllington Place to see what I mean.  I'm sure you know what happened, but please, just read the book as well anyway. 

Anyway - I'm glad we managed to get back to the point after the "ha ha -ing".  I am concerned about innocent people having fines slapped on them.  If they win their appeal, presumably costs would be awarded.  But if they can't afford the initial costs, they'll still have the record.  Now, I can see one thing emerging from this - no win no fee criminal lawyers working especially to get people off their ASBFs (Anti-social behaviour fines - I'm just coining them that to save our fingers!). 

But then let's not have a debate here about education or no win no fee! Oh, and for local comedy clubs, please go to www.yell.com. 

[Oneeyedvic]

J_Bug - really trying hard to resist doing it all over again

 

But seriously - I responded with the contempt that the answer WM gave deserved! If someone really believes that anyone who is innocent has nothing to fear is (in my humble opinion) then NO - I'm not going to rise. I'd better leave it there before I get really annoyed.

My previous post illustrated how ludicrous I felt WM's post to be - and if you don't like my opinion - (and my contempuous manic laughter is an opinion), then I suggest you don't bother asking questions but just give us your opinion or rant (and incidentally didn't you just say the same thing about Loosehead?)

[Ward-Minter]

one eyed vic. If you are going to be a silly little boy at least get my name right. I am not petty enough to make stupid comments on peoples bad English 'cos i know I am one of the worse offenders. However please spell my name right. Also all that ha ha ha buisness is best left to left wing commie work shy peasants who have never done anything good in their life and have eyes missing. Very uncool methinks.

janny bug. I never realised you were so young. Such mature writings for a wee bairn.

I have seen the Lord Attenborough movie of 10 Rillington Place. I see no miscarriages of justice there. He was Welsh afterall.    JOKE!!!!!

I see you point but that was a long time ago. The advent of DNA profiling, more "expert" witnesses, CCTV etc etc etc I do not believe the same mistakes will be made in a reintroduction of the Death Penalty was administered.

Without being patronising (as if I ever am!) I would love to hear your view on ANYTHING in about 15 years time, when you have kids, a mortage, have been the victim of serious crime (I hope not though) and see your hard earned salary wasted on immigrants who would rather burn the union Jack they salute it.

[january_bug]

Next time then vic - just say "I'm treating this with the contempt it deserves".  I respect do your opinion, but you show no respect for the people in this thread by wasting all that space with a totally childish response. 

Your views are probably well thought out and interesting, but you couldn't be bothered to express that the first time round. 

I actually have similar views to you on innocent until proven guilty.  I don't know why someone as intelligent as you couldn't manage to express themselves a little more eloquently!

WM - Let's see if AB is around in 15 years time.  I'm sure my views will change.  I wonder how your views now compare with those you had aged 22.  If my views change with my circumstances, I will see that as part of the ageing process rather than as a compromise to my principles, or that I was naive as a 22 year old.  As I know you appreciate, our ideals and voting tendencies can and do change as we progress from our 20s,30s,40s,50s.60s, etc etc. 

I take your point also by the way about DNA and 10 Rillington Place.  All I'm trying to say, as you perfectly understood I know, is that mistakes do happen.  In that case, a man died when he shouldn't have (although being Welsh, if he been passing through GLoucester after midnight, I might legally have had a pop at him with my bow & arrow, and still  legally can!!!).  If we were to allow the beating of yobs by officers, then innocent people may fall victim, which means they'd sue, which means taxes would go up AGAIN.  Not a good result I feel. 

Right, best press on!

[january_bug]

No come back - how disappointing.  I was rather looking forward to your ACTUAL opinion oneeyedvic, expressed in the way we all know you can.  Never mind though - I shall see in the future I'm sure. 

[Oneeyedvic]

sorry J_Bug - I never bothered replying as I am getting incresaingly annoyed with WM's post today - personally I hope that the majority of what he is saying is just for effect - I shudder to think that any army personel could think this way - and regarding innocent people not having to worry, I wonder what WM's feelings are about Deepcut, not to mention Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib (or are innocent people only white with blonde hair and blue eyes?)

Anyway, to answer your question indirectly; I would agree that education starts at home - and I am sure I will get into trouble by saying that I believe moral standards declined when one parent (mainly the monther) stopped staying at home to bring up chidren but decided they had the right to a career as well as parenthood.

It seems that this governement want to encourage this further by encouraging children to join breakfast clubs - soon I doubt that parents will be allowed / needed to raise children.

And before you say that both parents have to go to work to earn enough, I don't believe that either - its just the fact that most people want luxury items and can't afford it without two salaries.

If a parent were to stay at home and bring up a child, then (a) they would be able to exercise a lot more control over that child, and (b) they would know their child's whereabouts.

(I wonder if this makes me a commie loving blah blah blah)

[Ward-Minter]

ah one eyed one i apologise if I am annoying you. Never my attention. If everybody had the same view CB would not exist would it?

So I doff you my hat in respect if I have caused you a nuisance.

But please give me respect back. Quid pro quo dear boy. Try to understand I am not in the army. I have been out for a few years now. I can assure you the views of the army are pretty much consistant with society. Some are right others are left etc. I would stress that the armed services have a degree of thuggery in them. I joined as officer so never really met "the bread and butter" non-commissioners. Its not snobbery its the way it is.

I do actually take offence at you referring to ayrian(Sp.?) issues. I am from a Jewish heritage (not a Jew though!!)married to a Somalian and am a key figure in the Protection of Gurkha Pensions (Nepalise, if you didn't know) So I believe it is fair to say I am fairly on the ball with race issues.

What I am also fairly well qualified to say is matters on warfare. I have been there more than once.

[january_bug]

vic - I'm really grateful that you took the time to write out a proper response. 

However, probably best you and I never discuss career mothers.  You would be so upset by my views on my own "rights" that I dread to think how many "ha's" you'd post.  :-p

So are you a guy then?  I always thought it was Victoria not Victor.  At least I presume you're not a woman who would make those sexist comments. 

[Oneeyedvic]

sorry to disapoint - not a Victoria (though my mum really did want a girl)