Crosswords1 min ago
The Eu And Catalonia
European Union sided with Spain’s national government, and failed to explicitly condemn the violent suppression of the vote. European Commission First Vice President Frans Timmermans described the baton charges and rubber bullets used against voters and protesters as a “proportionate” use of force that EU states are entitled to deploy to protect the law.
Is this method of dealing with protests proportionate?
Is this method of dealing with protests proportionate?
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As usual with a Khandro post it is useful to check the story yourself to make sure they are be being presented honestly or not.
And the answer is mostly 'not'. True the EU has supported the Spanish Government, but the quote by Mr Timmermans was not in some edict by the EU, but was in a free debate (although slightly fixed) in the Eiropean Parliament, and many different views to Catalonia were expressed.
Timmermans did say the police action was proportionate, but he prefaced his comment, the full quote is here...
// “Let me be clear: Violence does not solve anything in politics. It is never an answer, never a solution. And it can never be used as a weapon or instrument,” he said.
“None of us want to see violence in our societies,” Timmermans went on. “However it is a duty for any government to uphold the law, and this sometimes does require the proportionate use of force.” //
In the debate, Timmermans was directly contradicted...
// Patrick Le Hyarric, a French MEP from the far-left GUE group, criticized EU countries who “turn a blind eye” on Catalonia while “the nation is ripping itself apart.”
“The EU must condemn the violation of the fundamental rights,” Le Hyarric said. “This crisis is not unfamiliar to us. We can’t accept politics based on violence in the EU.” //
http://
So 'proportionate' is one mans' opinion rather than an official EU proclamation. But the EU is against any disintegration of ANY member state, including when Scotland voted on leaving the UK.
And the answer is mostly 'not'. True the EU has supported the Spanish Government, but the quote by Mr Timmermans was not in some edict by the EU, but was in a free debate (although slightly fixed) in the Eiropean Parliament, and many different views to Catalonia were expressed.
Timmermans did say the police action was proportionate, but he prefaced his comment, the full quote is here...
// “Let me be clear: Violence does not solve anything in politics. It is never an answer, never a solution. And it can never be used as a weapon or instrument,” he said.
“None of us want to see violence in our societies,” Timmermans went on. “However it is a duty for any government to uphold the law, and this sometimes does require the proportionate use of force.” //
In the debate, Timmermans was directly contradicted...
// Patrick Le Hyarric, a French MEP from the far-left GUE group, criticized EU countries who “turn a blind eye” on Catalonia while “the nation is ripping itself apart.”
“The EU must condemn the violation of the fundamental rights,” Le Hyarric said. “This crisis is not unfamiliar to us. We can’t accept politics based on violence in the EU.” //
http://
So 'proportionate' is one mans' opinion rather than an official EU proclamation. But the EU is against any disintegration of ANY member state, including when Scotland voted on leaving the UK.
Gromit; Thank you for your substantial reply, but the fact remains that he thought the response had been "proportionate", even though a man lost the sight in one eye and a woman had been dragged along the floor by her hair plus hundreds of other violent acts by the civil guard and police.
In what way did he think this was 'upholding the law', when no crime was being committed?
In what way did he think this was 'upholding the law', when no crime was being committed?
The agreement between the Spanish Government and the Catalan on greater autonomy for the region affirmed that the Catalans could not hold independence election. If they did, they would be illegal.
// Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place. //
https:/
// Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place. //
https:/
According to the Constitutional Court of Spain, yes -- although said court was described as "very political", so maybe reached a decision out of politics rather than impartial law.
At any rate, thanks to Gromit for pointing out that this was a quote in a debate rather than an official announcement. But it's difficult to know what else to say at this point. As long as Catalonia isn't independent or isn't granted such status, the EU and any other external body necessarily sees the parliament in Madrid, over the one in Barcelona, as the official representatives of Spain. Heck, even Donald Trump does the same (although it should be noted that the last time he spoke on the issue, so far as I am aware, was before the referendum itself:
http://
At any rate, thanks to Gromit for pointing out that this was a quote in a debate rather than an official announcement. But it's difficult to know what else to say at this point. As long as Catalonia isn't independent or isn't granted such status, the EU and any other external body necessarily sees the parliament in Madrid, over the one in Barcelona, as the official representatives of Spain. Heck, even Donald Trump does the same (although it should be noted that the last time he spoke on the issue, so far as I am aware, was before the referendum itself:
http://
The Scottish Independence referendum took place only after David Cameron's UK Government agreed to it.
// The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013, setting out the arrangements for the referendum, was passed by the Scottish Parliament in November 2013, following an agreement between the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom government. //
If the SNP had set up an illegal referendum with intent to pull Scotland out of the UK, then a mess such as the one in Spain would have resulted.
// The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013, setting out the arrangements for the referendum, was passed by the Scottish Parliament in November 2013, following an agreement between the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom government. //
If the SNP had set up an illegal referendum with intent to pull Scotland out of the UK, then a mess such as the one in Spain would have resulted.
I think Gromit's point, well made, is that Mr Timmermans' view was one of a number expressed in debate. It should not be spun as "The EU supports violence by the Spanish police".
The EU it seems to me, is desperately trying not to take sides in this: it is upholding the principle of the law in respect to the calling of the referendum, and that seems wholly reasonable to me. As a 28-member conglomerate, one of the things it does not necessarily do well is move particularly agilely in situations like this. However it seems to me that, the vultures in the wings, and the hotheads on the ground notwithstanding, there's a general mood in broader Spain and in Barcelona for compromise.
The EU it seems to me, is desperately trying not to take sides in this: it is upholding the principle of the law in respect to the calling of the referendum, and that seems wholly reasonable to me. As a 28-member conglomerate, one of the things it does not necessarily do well is move particularly agilely in situations like this. However it seems to me that, the vultures in the wings, and the hotheads on the ground notwithstanding, there's a general mood in broader Spain and in Barcelona for compromise.
//If the SNP had set up an illegal referendum with intent to pull Scotland out of the UK, then a mess such as the one in Spain would have resulted. //
possible, but unlikely. catalonia is wealthy in its own right; it itcontributes about one-fifth of spain's GDP and would be well able to be self-sustaining in the event of a UDI with no support from Madrid. whereas Scotland had little more than tourism and whisky, and an oil industry that is most definitely sat on its backside; thus had every reason to co-operate with Westminster in the hope of getting its hands on some of the national gold reserve in the event of a "yes" vote.
possible, but unlikely. catalonia is wealthy in its own right; it itcontributes about one-fifth of spain's GDP and would be well able to be self-sustaining in the event of a UDI with no support from Madrid. whereas Scotland had little more than tourism and whisky, and an oil industry that is most definitely sat on its backside; thus had every reason to co-operate with Westminster in the hope of getting its hands on some of the national gold reserve in the event of a "yes" vote.
jno; //the referendum was illegal, was it not? //
I'm no lawyer, but holding a referendum cannot be "illegal", attempting to act on the results of it though is a different matter.
Catalonia at the end of the Spanish Civil War was given autonomous status which was later reneged on by Madrid. The Catalans do not even consider themselves to be Spanish which is borne out by their history.
I'm no lawyer, but holding a referendum cannot be "illegal", attempting to act on the results of it though is a different matter.
Catalonia at the end of the Spanish Civil War was given autonomous status which was later reneged on by Madrid. The Catalans do not even consider themselves to be Spanish which is borne out by their history.
You’re missing the point.
Regardless of the economic viability of country x or y, calling your own independence referendum is likely to lead to confrontation with the ‘mother’ state in one way or another. It’s also likely to be a referendum held in unsatisfactory circumstances, and consequently unlikely to have a plausible result one way or the other.
The last independence referendum in Europe before the Scottish one was I believe the Montenegrin one, which was held with the consent of the Yugoslav govt and was a sensible way of ratifying a stare of affairs that most people wanted. The Catalan referendum was none of those things
Regardless of the economic viability of country x or y, calling your own independence referendum is likely to lead to confrontation with the ‘mother’ state in one way or another. It’s also likely to be a referendum held in unsatisfactory circumstances, and consequently unlikely to have a plausible result one way or the other.
The last independence referendum in Europe before the Scottish one was I believe the Montenegrin one, which was held with the consent of the Yugoslav govt and was a sensible way of ratifying a stare of affairs that most people wanted. The Catalan referendum was none of those things
ichi; It depends on what you mean by autonomy;
https:/
https:/
THE Catalan regional government of Carles Puigdemont is preparing to hold a unilateral referendum on seceding from Spain on October 1st, which it says will be legally binding ... Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal
https:/
https:/
"Autonomy" does not extend to being able simply to declare UDI when you feel like it. Depending on how it is constitutionally defined. And it is defined very clearly in Spain's consitution, a constitution, moreover, agreed to as jno points out by the overwhelming majority of Catalans, hundreds of thousands of whom are as we speak demonstrating in Barcelona for Spanish unity. The Catalan Premier can declare UDI if he wished on Tuesday, but I suspect he is going to look pretty silly and will eventually be forced to resign, As long as the Spanish government does not overreact.
We shall know what he's going to do shortly, but what interested me about this thread was that the Catalans demanding independence and those supporting the move, are largely from the left and those wishing to stop them in Madrid are from the right (and even left-over fascists), and yet the left on here supported them.
Funny that! maybe it is because some oppose anything I say on principle :0)
Funny that! maybe it is because some oppose anything I say on principle :0)
Personally I am rather unsympathetic because I despise nationalism in general and because Puidgemont seems to have wilfully and deliberately engineered a confrontation with Madrid that is ultimately to some degree or another going to cause significant harm to Catalans. I don't think that's the behaviour of a "patriot", I think that's the behaviour of an irresponsible rabble-rouser who is purely after personal advancement.
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