Should smoking be banned in public places?

[Dakota]

I have been reading this article on BBC News:

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=102&&&edition=1&ttl=20051025152206

I would like to hear the views of *you* - the general public rather than what the Cabinet think.....

[january_bug]

I'm happy for there to be PROPER no smoking areas (i.e., not just the tables in pubs where they ran out of ashtrays), although if they can put us smokers in a sealed room in the warm (as in the old days of a "smoking room") then that would be nicer than making us go outside like lepers!

That said, I don't mind standing outside to smoke, but a covered area and a patio heater would make me more inclined to drink in one pub than in another during the colder, wetter months.

Re smoking in restaurants, I think it's DISGUSTING! I hate smoke near me when I'm eating. Yes, I enjoy a cigarette at the end of a meal, but I will always walk away from people eating in order to smoke.

So in conclusion, yes, I think a ban is a good idea, BUT a sensible publican/manager will provide a decent amount of comfort to his smoking clientelle (sp)if he wants to keep them!

[Dakota]

Thank you Buggy, but the way things are heading the publican / manager is not going to get the oppportunity to decide for him/herself the best course of action to keep both "sets" (for want of a better word) of clients happy.

[january_bug]

Yeah, letting the market decide would be the best option, but unfortunately we apparently need to be controlled by the state! Such a law seems totally inefficient to me anyway, but ho hum!

What I more meant, was that, if the landlord/lady can do his/her best under the new (albeit proposed only at the moment) legislation by having a covered (if open) area outside, with seats and heaters, and plenty of ashtrays etc, then perhaps smokers wouldn't mind as we'd be being treated a little less like lepers!

[jimmer]

let the market decide! don't you think thats rather glib given the market wont give a fig if people working in bars get lung cancer through second hand smoke.

jim

[derekblue]

i have often wondered if smokers feel as grubby as they appear,and do they even know?

[Dakota]

Derekblue - my question wasn't "Do you think smokers look and feel grubby"

[january_bug]

jimmer - There's such a thing as the labour market actually! If smokers are in a separate room, away from the bar, and the bar is totally smoke free, what harm is the smoke doing to workers?

derekblue - smokers are like people who drink. Different brands, different amounts, different strengths, different times, and different levels of personal hygene. Believe me, if you've ever been on public transport or in a lift you'll know that there are some people ot there who STINK, and it's not because they smoke. And not all smokers look grubby, so perhaps less of the sweeping generalisations please! Thanks!

[jimmer]

January "there's such a thing as a labour market" what do you mean by that?

The market could decide if a pub could afford the room and/or expense to put by a seperate smoking room but someone would still have to clean/monitor/empty ashtrays.

[Dakota]

Both arguments are true. Would it be unreasonable to ask staff to sign a contract whereby they have chosen to enter this "smoking area" or not?

[jimmer]

Dakota. Well, that type of contract is problematic. A bit like the working time directive, staff could be put under pressure to sign. Anywhere I have been where smoking is banned, you have to go outside to smoke. I think coffee bars in amsterdam are an exception for obvious reasons. Bans on smoking are primarily for the health and safety of staff. You could say "get the staff to sign a waiver", but what happens in 10 or twenty years time when these people change their minds and want to sue the gov't/passed employers for negligence. The reason i brought all this up was not really to havea go at january ( her comments are rare on AB in that they are considered and intelligent) but because the issue of smoking carriages is where the argument is within the gov't.



jim

[january_bug]

I'm going to risk sounding VERY trite here, but after 6 years of working in catering, I think it's fair to say that a vast majority of staff in catering are smokers. They therefore may be happier to pop into the smoking room to clear the ashtrays every so often.

I realise it's hardly a perfect plan, but compromises are usually second best, rather than first bests solutions.

Re the labour market, I simply meant that if some places were non-smoking and others allowed smoking throughout and others a mixture, staff would eventually float to the pubs that best combined smoke and pay in a way that maximised their utility from work. Pie in the sky theory someone may say, but it's true. If someone hates being near smoke to the extent of 50p an hour, they should be prepared to take a job that pays 50p/hour less, if it's in a non-smoking pub.

My point really, is that protecting staff and non-smokers, and not treating smokers like lepers need not be mutually exclusive!

[Dakota]

Hi Jim, I understand the reservations of introducing such a clause, but I didn't mean it as a "you will sign this or else" I meant it as a choice of that person. I wouldn't have an issue with signing such a contract - no matter what "box" I ticked.

Another thought too, is it also unreasonable to ban smoking in public bars until such time that the publican / manager introduces an effective air conditioning system?

I wholeheartedly agree that smoking should be banned outright in establishments that sell food, but to ban it in pubs and nightclubs I feel might be taking it too far. I can see it getting to a point where people will just stop going to these establishments, which in turn will stop taking in as much money, which in turn will lead to redundancy and even more unemployment in the Country.

Am I creating a snowball effect in my head needlessly?

[jimmer]

Most people in the catering industry are on mimimum wage and are not in a position to negotiate with their employers regarding working conditions. If the market could work all this out for itself there would be no need for the legislation but clearly the market has failed to provide a solution. there is apparently a large market for smoke free pubs and yet very few outlets are smoke free so our imaginary bar stward has to work in a smokey pub.

jim

[january_bug]

No Dakota you're not. Such arguements have been made (and quite rightly too in my opinion!) Cost-benefit-analysis must, after all, take into account the COSTS of the proposed law, as well as the benefits. Another cost that must be borne in mind is enforcement. Will the police come round to check if anyone is smoking in the pubs? How does it work in Ireland?

I tihnk that small exceptions should be made to many rules, in order to make them work as best they can. Allowing a smoking room in an otherwise non-smoking establishment would seem a decent compromise. *realises has made the same point 3 times and decides to actually do some work today!!!*

[jimmer]

Dakota

i gave up smoking 3 weeks ago and loved nothing more than sitting in the pub with a pint and a cigi. If it were up to me people could smoke when and where they wanted. I'm rare in that i share my office with a smoker (smokes all day0 and it doesn't bother me at all. However, that is not what legislation is all about. i think that the Gov't has to act within a framework to reduce harm to emplyees and move in common to the rest of Europe and North America who seem to be going down this road.

jim

[january_bug]

Yeah, I know - I said I'd do some work!!!

Catering workers are on above minimum wage, belive me. Most are also students who aren't that fussy. Also, there are enough jobs in catering that people can move around. They could work for an agency and request only to go to smoke free places.

I realise that the minority deserves protection, but I still maintain that a cost benefit should be done, and done properly.

Finally, perhaps the lack of smokefree pubs is because the market hasn't demanded it yet! Which means that consumer choice is prevailing. It's possible to argue that anyway!

[jimmer]

I'm a bit confused January. if there are no smoke free pubs because the market has spoken and said we don't need smoke free pubs how in the dickens can those in catering expect to gain employment in smoke free pubs? If i understand your argument correctly it is that: if people didn't want to work in smokey pubs they wouldn't work in smokey pubs. Hummm. I might open up an asbestos dump.

jim

[Dakota]

Jim - Congratulations :)

That's the point I'm trying to make - to reduce the harm to employees, would my theoretical super duper air conditioning system not effectively do this, without ostracising those who want to continue enjoy a cigarette along with their pint?

[jimmer]

Dakota

No air conditioning does not get rid of the smoke effectivly enough to be a viable alternative. so say those pesky "experts" we hear so much about.

jim

[Loosehead]

I have been to Ireland several times since they introduced a ban and I have to say as a non smoker it made the pubs and resturants much more pleasant. I think Italy has also followed the Irish example and I think inevitably we will too. There are a lot of references above to "lepers" and I think that's the correct term, smoking is becomming social leprosy. Smokers may not all look like scruffs JanBug but they all reek of smoke without exception I sometimes wonder if they really are aware of how bad they smell. The smoking room idea is ok as long as it is isolated from the rest of the place but I fear even that will be misused and just become a "smoking area" which is like having a peeing area in a swimming pool!