Another Brexit Defeat

[sp1814]

Is it now inevitable, that the Brexit that many people voted for, will never ever happen?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/may/08/brexit-boris-johnson-accuses-remain-voting-cabinet-colleagues-of-reviving-project-fear-politics-live

Incidentally, the URL above doesn't quite match the story.

[Jackdaw33]

Meaningless. It will be overturned in the Commons. The Lords are urinating in the wind.

[New Judge]

nd it is, of course, the Grauniad.

[sp1814]

But how can the Government deliver Brexit, when there isn't an agreement on what that actually is?

This is what I'm seeing at work - there are people who voted for Brexit who have completely different ideas of what that actually means.

All the people I've spoken to who voted to remain had one goal...to remain.

But those who voted to leave either want soft or hard Brexit...so whatever happens from now on - the majority of people aren't going to be happy with the outcome.

[Old_Geezer]

Whilst the upper chamber try to kick democracy down, their opinion is invalid and must be rejected. All they do is strengthen the case for the upper chamber replacement and waste a little time in the lower house while it rejects any amendment and sends it on again. The exit will be decided upon by the government and it's important that it stands up for genuine withdrawal.

[Togo]

Haha, I can see it now. As the Remoaners get another false dog whistle, call they wag their tails as they wee on the carpets like incontinent puppies. Woof, woof.

[Old_Geezer]

There was never really such a thing as soft Brexit. That was always just a label for a remainers fall back position to try to thwart the exit decision.

[sp1814]

Adults still using the terms ‘Remoaners’ and ‘Brextremists’.

That’s fantastic.

[sp1814]

We don’t even have a Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary agreeing on a key tenet of Brexit (customs union).

[ToraToraTora]

Turkeys voting for xmas, the PM will use the parliament act for what it's meant to be used for.

[New Judge]

"But those who voted to leave either want soft or hard Brexit"

There is no such thing as either a "soft" or a "hard" Brexit. It's like being slightly pregnant (or not).
.
It was made abundantly clear to the electorate (not least by the architects of "Project Fear") what leaving the EU would mean. It means leaving the organisation and all its functions and institutions. Anything else is not leaving.In the same way as the UK cannot pick and choose what bits of membership it can retain, nor can the EU.

We have the opportunity to leave completely but politicians in both Houses seek to thwart that exit and are playing into the Euromaniacs' hands. Shame on them. We need to crack on and extract ourselves from what is a corrupt, protectionist and shameful organisation.

[Old_Geezer]

The PM surely knows that staying in the CU in it's present form is simply remaining under EU control. The question is what will the EU suggest replacing it with when they've finished making what they know are unacceptable suggestions ? Either they want an open border in Ireland as they like to claim or they are going for the 'blame everyone but themselves and cry crocodile tears when no agreement is reached', option.

[Mamyalynne]

Seems to me that voters knew what they were voting for but that didn't quite extend to the Government.

[Jackdaw33]

If I were a contestant on Noel Edmond's 'Deal or No deal' I would go every time for 'No deal'.

[sp1814]

The referendum question was this:

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union, or leave the European Union?”

The question assumes a binary choice — Remain or Leave the EU — while voting theory warns that allowing only two options can easily be a misleading representation of the real choice.

When the true situation is more complex, and especially if it is one that arouses strong passions, then reducing the question to a binary one might suggest a political motivation.

As a result of the present process, we actually don’t know how people would have voted when they had been offered the true options.

Compare the question: ‘Do you still beat your mother ?’ When you are allowed only a Yes or No answer, then you are blocked from answering:

‘I will not answer that question because if I say No then it suggests that I agree that I have beaten her in the past.’

In the case of Brexit, the hidden complexity concerned:

— Leave, and adopt an EFTA or WTO framework?

— Leave, while the UK remains intact or while it splits up?

— Remain, in what manner?

[sp1814]

Also - are we saying that everyone who voted to leave wanted to do so with ‘no deal’?

Do we collectively know what the impact on our industries would be?

If we said to the EU - we’re not paying a penny to leave, we’re off...is that in our best interest?

[Old_Geezer]

I disagree that the example comparison question is a fit comparison. There's no ambiguity on in whatever, or out whatever. No implication of any admission.

[Old_Geezer]

Better than staying in, that's for sure.
But hopefully the EU isn't beyond decent negotiation so we ought to be abale to agree a better arrangement with less disruption during the transition.

[sp1814]

But why do we have so much dissent and argument amongst those who are working towards Brexit?

When our Foreign Secretary denounces his own government’s plans for a customs arrangement as ‘crazy’ - what does that mean?

I don’t think we’re ever going to get a Brexit that all those who voted for it want.

It’s going to be a patchwork.

Money on it.

[Old_Geezer]

There is the thought that negotiation is always about compromise, but if red lines are crossed the issues will only need to be revisited again; so May needs to heed those supporting her, at present.

[Togo]

The choice was.....Leave and be rid of the corrupt pyramid scheme that featherbeds the compliant. Or Stay, and swallow it up like a good lapdog.