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Why Does Oxford Give A Rats April What M A A B O F Non Entity Lammy Thinks?
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If you are good enough you'll get in, simples!
If you are good enough you'll get in, simples!
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I couldn't give a monkeys about Oxbridge to be perfectly honest - all a load of hype IMHO.
However I think the issue here is the lack of applications. This came out in an interview on Sky this morning that only a dozen applicants were there in the first place. Perhaps find the reason for that because maybe it's because people dont think they stand a chance or just maybe its because those people have not got their heads shoved up their jacksies and are happier in another Uni environment?
However I think the issue here is the lack of applications. This came out in an interview on Sky this morning that only a dozen applicants were there in the first place. Perhaps find the reason for that because maybe it's because people dont think they stand a chance or just maybe its because those people have not got their heads shoved up their jacksies and are happier in another Uni environment?
Not sure I'd agree that Oxbridge is a load of hype -- on most measures, after all, they both rank among the top universities in the world, which has to count for something.
I think, however, YMB has made a point I was also driving at, albeit in rather less time. If such people aren't applying in the first place, how can you be sure whether or not they are good enough?
I think, however, YMB has made a point I was also driving at, albeit in rather less time. If such people aren't applying in the first place, how can you be sure whether or not they are good enough?
Plenty of non-white students go to Oxbridge, but many of them are not British. Check how many Chinese students study Maths at Cambridge, for example. So if we're going to prevent some people getting into Oxbridge to allow others in, maybe we should start by preventing so many overseas students and allow more of our home students in.
The problem there, of course, is that these Universities compete on a world stage. Already they have lost rankings to the likes of MIT, Stanford, Harvard and Caltech. They are no longer seen as the world's best, and for them a high priority will be to restore that reputation or at least stop it slipping further.
The problem there, of course, is that these Universities compete on a world stage. Already they have lost rankings to the likes of MIT, Stanford, Harvard and Caltech. They are no longer seen as the world's best, and for them a high priority will be to restore that reputation or at least stop it slipping further.
Problem with excluding overseas students is that most of the ones who come are utterly brilliant (if a bit stuck-up), so it would be self-defeating to exclude them on that alone -- and, for that matter, they bring a lot of money with them. Tuition fees for homegrown students might end up going even higher, and with even less generous repayment conditions, if you were to implement tighter quotas on overseas students.
I agree Jim ... just pointing out the White Privileged British and Black Underprivileged British are not the only potential attendees of Oxbridge, yet all the attention is on these two. Nobody seems to mind whether the overseas students were underprivileged or not, but the chances are probably not ...
So the outcome of Lammy's proposal would be:
* keep up the privileged overseas students
* reduce the privileged British students, especially if they are white southerners (Lammy's words)
( increase the underprivileged British students, especially if they are not white or southerners
Which begs the question, should white, southern, clever, hardworking, British students who are unfortunate enough to be born into wealthy families not be allowed into the best universities in the country?
So the outcome of Lammy's proposal would be:
* keep up the privileged overseas students
* reduce the privileged British students, especially if they are white southerners (Lammy's words)
( increase the underprivileged British students, especially if they are not white or southerners
Which begs the question, should white, southern, clever, hardworking, British students who are unfortunate enough to be born into wealthy families not be allowed into the best universities in the country?
I agree with those who suggest that Oxbridge might be over-hyped. While Oxford and Cambridge might be the best for certain academic disciplines, there are other universities which stand out ahead of them in certain subjects.
For example, if a potential student wants to study environmental sciences, the the University of East Anglia is often rated as one of the best universities in the world for such subjects. Similarly, Southampton is rated as one of the best in the world for marine science, with UMIST excelling in engineering. For those subject areas (and many more) Oxford and Cambridge simply aren't the very best places to study.
However I'm still not sure that TTT's statement ("If you are good enough you'll get in, simples!") is actually true anyway. I hope that things might have improved since my teaching days but, somehow, I doubt it. In those days there was still a lot of unconscious bias in the selection process operated by Oxford (and by other 'prestigious' universities).
For example, I taught a 6th former who was expected to get top grades in all his subjects and was otherwise well-qualified for university entry. (i.e. he was articulate, conscientious, pleasant, sensible, responsible, involved in working with his local community and ticked every other box that those selecting candidates could possibly ask for). He applied to lots of universities, including Oxford, but didn't get a single offer.
Then he changed his name from (the obviously Asian) 'Fraz Taj' to (the very British sounding) 'David Christopher Parkinson' and re-submitted identical applications to the same universities. Every single one of them, including Oxford, then gave him good offers. (He actually accepted the Oxford offer and went on to study there).
I'm sure that every one of the admission tutors who saw his applications would have said (and, more worryingly, genuinely believed) that they weren't prejudiced against Asian students but they were clearly operating biased policies at a subconscious level nonetheless.
For example, if a potential student wants to study environmental sciences, the the University of East Anglia is often rated as one of the best universities in the world for such subjects. Similarly, Southampton is rated as one of the best in the world for marine science, with UMIST excelling in engineering. For those subject areas (and many more) Oxford and Cambridge simply aren't the very best places to study.
However I'm still not sure that TTT's statement ("If you are good enough you'll get in, simples!") is actually true anyway. I hope that things might have improved since my teaching days but, somehow, I doubt it. In those days there was still a lot of unconscious bias in the selection process operated by Oxford (and by other 'prestigious' universities).
For example, I taught a 6th former who was expected to get top grades in all his subjects and was otherwise well-qualified for university entry. (i.e. he was articulate, conscientious, pleasant, sensible, responsible, involved in working with his local community and ticked every other box that those selecting candidates could possibly ask for). He applied to lots of universities, including Oxford, but didn't get a single offer.
Then he changed his name from (the obviously Asian) 'Fraz Taj' to (the very British sounding) 'David Christopher Parkinson' and re-submitted identical applications to the same universities. Every single one of them, including Oxford, then gave him good offers. (He actually accepted the Oxford offer and went on to study there).
I'm sure that every one of the admission tutors who saw his applications would have said (and, more worryingly, genuinely believed) that they weren't prejudiced against Asian students but they were clearly operating biased policies at a subconscious level nonetheless.
"I never applied for Oxbridge, not believing myself to be good enough,..."
I had prepared longer answer but won't bother. You've hit the nail on the head, jd. People don't apply because they believe they are not up to it and this almost certainly means they are not. Self-belief and determination are a key requirement.
A couple of comments on the report:
“London and the South East made up 46.7% of UK applications between 2015 and 2017,…”
Hardly surprising since two-thirds of the people who live in the UK reside in London and the South East.
“…while the North East accounted for just 2% “
Equally unsurprising. Most of the people I have met from Tyneside have difficulty making themselves understood when thy venture south of Hartlepool so the idea of an intensive interview in Oxford might not appeal to them.
The onus on achieving “diversity” rests with the diverse. My belief is that many young people feel it is not for them so they do not apply. That may have something to do with the fact that a course at Oxford may be a little more academically challenging than one at Neasden Polytechnic and it may not turn out to be the three year skive that some would-be students seek.
I had prepared longer answer but won't bother. You've hit the nail on the head, jd. People don't apply because they believe they are not up to it and this almost certainly means they are not. Self-belief and determination are a key requirement.
A couple of comments on the report:
“London and the South East made up 46.7% of UK applications between 2015 and 2017,…”
Hardly surprising since two-thirds of the people who live in the UK reside in London and the South East.
“…while the North East accounted for just 2% “
Equally unsurprising. Most of the people I have met from Tyneside have difficulty making themselves understood when thy venture south of Hartlepool so the idea of an intensive interview in Oxford might not appeal to them.
The onus on achieving “diversity” rests with the diverse. My belief is that many young people feel it is not for them so they do not apply. That may have something to do with the fact that a course at Oxford may be a little more academically challenging than one at Neasden Polytechnic and it may not turn out to be the three year skive that some would-be students seek.
The onus is also on the government to provide the sort of high-quality education that, until very recently, was restricted to but a few. If they can do that, making access to Oxbridge etc plausible for everyone if they so choose, *then* you can start blaming it on minorities if they don't make the most of the opportunities given.
We aren't at that point yet. Insisting otherwise is ignorant at best, and snobbish at worst.
We aren't at that point yet. Insisting otherwise is ignorant at best, and snobbish at worst.
Yes, apologies jd. I should have qualified my assertion by referring to "younger people". Most older Geordies seem to make an effort to make themselves understood. Among the young there seems to be a fashion for being as incomprehensible as possible. This is not confined to those from the North East but when it is combined with their natural burr it makes life very difficult for those who need to understand what they are saying.
Thinking a bit wider, this may well be a general problem when young people are considering their future. They may well be put off when they realise they are facing an interview with people who understand only Received Pronunciation. If that is the problem that reduces the number of applications to Oxford then that is a problem for the applicants, not the University..
Thinking a bit wider, this may well be a general problem when young people are considering their future. They may well be put off when they realise they are facing an interview with people who understand only Received Pronunciation. If that is the problem that reduces the number of applications to Oxford then that is a problem for the applicants, not the University..
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