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Do You Agree With These Parents?
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I must admit I do hold some sympathy. Whilst I certainly do not condone homophobia I really dont think schools should be promoting LGBT propaganda for children as young as this.
But will the Muslims be able to do better at halting this mad rush to push sex (all types) onto young children than the Christians or atheists have been?
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But will the Muslims be able to do better at halting this mad rush to push sex (all types) onto young children than the Christians or atheists have been?
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Jim, //Leaving it to the parents risks pandering to the sort of prejudices that kept homosexuality underground//
As a parent there are some things I prefer children to remain in ignorance of until old enough to understand. I am responsible for my children’s welfare – not you – and not that teacher – and it is I who will have to deal with any negative effects that your selfishness produces. Reading your posts one could be forgiven for thinking this is all about what you and that teacher want.... but it isn't.
As a parent there are some things I prefer children to remain in ignorance of until old enough to understand. I am responsible for my children’s welfare – not you – and not that teacher – and it is I who will have to deal with any negative effects that your selfishness produces. Reading your posts one could be forgiven for thinking this is all about what you and that teacher want.... but it isn't.
What negative effects do you imagine?
In essence, the point I am making is something like this: what should the response be if a child is collected by their two, same-sex, parents? Presumably the answer is *not* to ignore it, for fear of allowing discrimination and prejudice; nor can it be to tell the couple that they aren't allowed to turn up together to collect their child. This leaves only one sensible option, which is to address the subject in a fair, balanced, and -- of course -- an absolutely age-appropriate way. That is looking after the best interests of every child, is it not?
But then the further point is, why should only the children who are directly forced to confront this issue because of such unique circumstances be the ones blessed with an education designed to tackle and reduce prejudice? There is no such reason.
The idea that my suggestion is motivated by selfishness is at best utterly wrong, and at worst hypocritical.
In essence, the point I am making is something like this: what should the response be if a child is collected by their two, same-sex, parents? Presumably the answer is *not* to ignore it, for fear of allowing discrimination and prejudice; nor can it be to tell the couple that they aren't allowed to turn up together to collect their child. This leaves only one sensible option, which is to address the subject in a fair, balanced, and -- of course -- an absolutely age-appropriate way. That is looking after the best interests of every child, is it not?
But then the further point is, why should only the children who are directly forced to confront this issue because of such unique circumstances be the ones blessed with an education designed to tackle and reduce prejudice? There is no such reason.
The idea that my suggestion is motivated by selfishness is at best utterly wrong, and at worst hypocritical.
//an education designed to tackle and reduce prejudice//
We're not taliking about prejudice against gay relationships per se, are we? The prejudice you're talking about is the belief that the traditional family of mother and father is a better arrangement for raising children than a two mummy or a two daddy "family". And that children have to be "educated" to see that all of these arrangements are all equally "valid". Is that it, Jim? Do I understand you correctly?
We're not taliking about prejudice against gay relationships per se, are we? The prejudice you're talking about is the belief that the traditional family of mother and father is a better arrangement for raising children than a two mummy or a two daddy "family". And that children have to be "educated" to see that all of these arrangements are all equally "valid". Is that it, Jim? Do I understand you correctly?
//Young children don’t understand what a ‘relationship’ is – and no, as a parent who can only speak from experience, I have no way of demonstrating that. However, (I would say by the same token, but since you aren’t a parent it isn’t) you have no way of assuring me that young children will not be confused and potentially damaged by this project.//
Children are surrounded by romantic relationships. At home, in stories, through just about every adult they are likely to interact with. It is not remotely difficult for a child to understand that two adults are in a relationship. I remember what it was like to be a child perfectly. I was not confused or damaged by the idea that adults were in love, even if I was then too young to experience romantic love myself.
If it's possible for a child to understand that, it's quite possible for them to understand that not all relationships are between a man and a woman. There is nothing age-inappropriate about that, and if you think there is then you need to explain what that is. Teaching children about the world is what school is for.
Children are surrounded by romantic relationships. At home, in stories, through just about every adult they are likely to interact with. It is not remotely difficult for a child to understand that two adults are in a relationship. I remember what it was like to be a child perfectly. I was not confused or damaged by the idea that adults were in love, even if I was then too young to experience romantic love myself.
If it's possible for a child to understand that, it's quite possible for them to understand that not all relationships are between a man and a woman. There is nothing age-inappropriate about that, and if you think there is then you need to explain what that is. Teaching children about the world is what school is for.
//The prejudice you're talking about is the belief that the traditional family of mother and father is a better arrangement for raising children than a two mummy or a two daddy "family".//
What's with the airquotes around family? Are you suggesting that same-sex parents are some kind of pseudo-family?
Also, educating children that same-sex relationships exist and are fine is not even remotely close to an "attack on the traditional family." People who actually want to do that hate all this stuff because they think it robs homosexuality of its dissident nature. Children cannot be educated into being gay - that is simply not how it works.
What's with the airquotes around family? Are you suggesting that same-sex parents are some kind of pseudo-family?
Also, educating children that same-sex relationships exist and are fine is not even remotely close to an "attack on the traditional family." People who actually want to do that hate all this stuff because they think it robs homosexuality of its dissident nature. Children cannot be educated into being gay - that is simply not how it works.
I'm not sure I understand why you put "educated" in speech marks, v-e, but leaving that aside, I think I'm referring to a slightly stronger version of prejudice than that one. If the reaction of parents to the question "why does Billy have two Mums?" is something along the lines of "because they're living in sin, don't have anything to do with Billy!", then that should absolutely be challenged.
That's not to say that even the prejudice in favour of opposite-sex couples shouldn't be challenged: as far as I am aware, most studies suggest that there is no material difference in child outcome between children with a mum and a dad, or children with two dads or two mums, and that the main factor is how stable and loving the family is. Which should make some level of sense: I am sure that even the most ardent advocate of the importance of parents being of opposite gender when it comes to upbringing would still concede that any advantages of that must be lost in a dysfunctional family plagued by separation, domestic violence, etc etc.
That's not to say that even the prejudice in favour of opposite-sex couples shouldn't be challenged: as far as I am aware, most studies suggest that there is no material difference in child outcome between children with a mum and a dad, or children with two dads or two mums, and that the main factor is how stable and loving the family is. Which should make some level of sense: I am sure that even the most ardent advocate of the importance of parents being of opposite gender when it comes to upbringing would still concede that any advantages of that must be lost in a dysfunctional family plagued by separation, domestic violence, etc etc.
Krom, you may remember being a child - me too – but I’m willing to bet that you, like me, never had reason to ask how two mummies or two daddies produce a child.
Jim, You are one confused soul. This isn’t about the impact that same sex parents have on a child, or about domestic violence. Frankly it’s an insult to suggest that anyone here would tell their children to distance themselves from any child of same sex parents – and there you are preaching about bigotry and ignorance.
Jim, You are one confused soul. This isn’t about the impact that same sex parents have on a child, or about domestic violence. Frankly it’s an insult to suggest that anyone here would tell their children to distance themselves from any child of same sex parents – and there you are preaching about bigotry and ignorance.
//I’m willing to bet that you, like me, never had reason to ask how two mummies or two daddies produce a child.//
What a strange thing to say. I did frequently ask my parents where babies came from, like most kids do. Being ignorant of the answer, it didn't really occur to me that a mummy and daddy were necessary. Why would it? Certainly I don't think a child's unawareness about where babies come from is anything damaging. I'm not sure why you see it as a problem.
You seem to be worried that children who don't know where babies come from will be confused... when they could only possibly find it confusing if they know how babies are made in the first place. Bit of a headscratcher that.
What a strange thing to say. I did frequently ask my parents where babies came from, like most kids do. Being ignorant of the answer, it didn't really occur to me that a mummy and daddy were necessary. Why would it? Certainly I don't think a child's unawareness about where babies come from is anything damaging. I'm not sure why you see it as a problem.
You seem to be worried that children who don't know where babies come from will be confused... when they could only possibly find it confusing if they know how babies are made in the first place. Bit of a headscratcher that.
Krom, //You seem to be worried that children who don't know where babies come from will be confused... //
No – and I didn’t say that or even imply it. If they didn’t know where babies come from they wouldn’t be asking how two mummies or two daddies can make a baby.
//when they could only possibly find it confusing if they know how babies are made in the first place.//
Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot. You’ve saved me the trouble.
No – and I didn’t say that or even imply it. If they didn’t know where babies come from they wouldn’t be asking how two mummies or two daddies can make a baby.
//when they could only possibly find it confusing if they know how babies are made in the first place.//
Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot. You’ve saved me the trouble.
Krom, we’re talking about little children – four, five years old. They don't need to be educated in the more complex issues of society - they're not ready for it. Your wish for your chosen lifestyle – something that they don’t need to know about - to be introduced into their lives is all about you – not about them.
My lifestyle isn't 'chosen', naomi. I can't control who I fall in love with any more than you can. The idea that gay people 'choose' their lifestyles is an insidious form of homophobia designed to advance the idea that they can be educated out of it. It's an extremely harmful lie and I'll thank you not to repeat it.
As for the idea that it's 'all about me' - I am not the one arguing that children should not be educated about something, even in an age-appropriate way, based solely on my prejudices.
What is 'too complicated' about surrogacy or adoption? If a four or five year old knows where babies come from already, then it's really not difficult or complicated to explain. Certainly there are plenty of childrens' stories about orphans - which is half the explanation already. If they don't know, then it isn't a question that is going to occur to them.
As for the idea that it's 'all about me' - I am not the one arguing that children should not be educated about something, even in an age-appropriate way, based solely on my prejudices.
What is 'too complicated' about surrogacy or adoption? If a four or five year old knows where babies come from already, then it's really not difficult or complicated to explain. Certainly there are plenty of childrens' stories about orphans - which is half the explanation already. If they don't know, then it isn't a question that is going to occur to them.
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