ChatterBank0 min ago
Even If Just The Headline Is True
Even if the headline is true and talks with Conservatives and Labour about Brexit are breaking down... then good. Maybe talks will breakdown before and they won’t be able to foist their crap on us.
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Plenty of people voted for Brexit believing that the prospect of a no-deal exit was nothing more than Remainer scaremongering. Now people are trying to assert that it was the point of the vote.
And well it might have been - for you. But if it is Brexiters who are to decide the fate of our country (and let's not forget most of them fled from the prospect of doing so), then you need to face up to the fact that people want different things out of Brexit and the cause is implacably divided.
And well it might have been - for you. But if it is Brexiters who are to decide the fate of our country (and let's not forget most of them fled from the prospect of doing so), then you need to face up to the fact that people want different things out of Brexit and the cause is implacably divided.
McDonnell doesn't think much of May's ideas.
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"...because the simple fact is that leaving meant different things to different people in 2016 and still does even now."
Often stated. I think before you support that contention you need to consider this: during the referendum campaign three (blindingly obvious) key consequences were outlined. These were that the UK would leave the Single Market, would leave the customs union and would no longer be subject to the ECJ. Anybody who voted to leave and expected any of those three consequences to be ignored should not have voted to leave. All of the "deals" that are being bandied about - including Mrs May's thrice rejected version - mean one or more of those three key principles to leaving being unfulfilled and so do not amount to leaving. These deals are nothing to do with future trade deals between the EU and the UK. They are about "permission to leave" without causing us too much trouble.
Often stated. I think before you support that contention you need to consider this: during the referendum campaign three (blindingly obvious) key consequences were outlined. These were that the UK would leave the Single Market, would leave the customs union and would no longer be subject to the ECJ. Anybody who voted to leave and expected any of those three consequences to be ignored should not have voted to leave. All of the "deals" that are being bandied about - including Mrs May's thrice rejected version - mean one or more of those three key principles to leaving being unfulfilled and so do not amount to leaving. These deals are nothing to do with future trade deals between the EU and the UK. They are about "permission to leave" without causing us too much trouble.
the whole point of labour and tory getting together was to broker a "deal" (or "stitch-up", depending on your Brexit leaning) in time to avoid holding the MEP elections. but labour are now saying that a deal without a 2nd referendum will not pass through parliament. a referendum will take 18-22 weeks to set up (which is beyond the new exit day, never mind MEP election day). i'm not exactly clear what the point is of flogging this particular dead horse if there's no possibility of it achieving its end. nearly 2 months into the Brexit extension and we'll be back at square one, with many weeks of parliamentary recess between now and Brexit day.
//Anybody who voted to leave and expected any of those three consequences to be ignored should not have voted to leave.//
Vote Leave effectively promised exactly this, though, on the days when it promised EEA membership as an outcome of Brexit. I know you personally don't agree with that, and I understand why. But the simple fact is that other Leavers felt differently. There's a significant group of Brexiters who campaigned for Brexit, and won votes for it, based on the promise of a Norway option, while others targeted voters like you with a hard-Brexit message. This is why there were so many campaigns with such contradictory messages. You cannot just write these people out of history because it's not convenient to you.
The claims you outline all come from the (Remain-supporting) government leaflet - and were at the time dismissed as scaremongering by a government trying to deter people from voting Leave. Now they're being claimed as the core definition of what Leave means.
Vote Leave effectively promised exactly this, though, on the days when it promised EEA membership as an outcome of Brexit. I know you personally don't agree with that, and I understand why. But the simple fact is that other Leavers felt differently. There's a significant group of Brexiters who campaigned for Brexit, and won votes for it, based on the promise of a Norway option, while others targeted voters like you with a hard-Brexit message. This is why there were so many campaigns with such contradictory messages. You cannot just write these people out of history because it's not convenient to you.
The claims you outline all come from the (Remain-supporting) government leaflet - and were at the time dismissed as scaremongering by a government trying to deter people from voting Leave. Now they're being claimed as the core definition of what Leave means.
"many Brexit supporters don’t want the reality of Brexit but something else instead"
Not the way I see it. All, or most shall we say, in case someone finds a few exceptions, wanted to leave and voted to leave. None of the deals nor suggested Remainer options put forward so far has offered Brexit, and judging from EU comments it's never going to be. So those who want Brexit have to accept there is only one option and I think many realise that. No one wants something else.
Different promises are not a good argument since these groups were cross party so had no power to promise anything. Various statements on what was thought may or may not be possible, were made, but that was it. And there was no exaggeration on the scale that the remain group and it's supporters made about how awful the option they opposed would be. We already were living the issues of membership and had been for decades so many of the problems were known, and the direction that the EU was heading, clear. It was as straight as it could be expected to be.
Not the way I see it. All, or most shall we say, in case someone finds a few exceptions, wanted to leave and voted to leave. None of the deals nor suggested Remainer options put forward so far has offered Brexit, and judging from EU comments it's never going to be. So those who want Brexit have to accept there is only one option and I think many realise that. No one wants something else.
Different promises are not a good argument since these groups were cross party so had no power to promise anything. Various statements on what was thought may or may not be possible, were made, but that was it. And there was no exaggeration on the scale that the remain group and it's supporters made about how awful the option they opposed would be. We already were living the issues of membership and had been for decades so many of the problems were known, and the direction that the EU was heading, clear. It was as straight as it could be expected to be.
The EU would certainly grant the UK time for another referendum.
If there’s a general election before we leave the EU, it is hard to see how we’d end up with a parliament that was more pro-Brexit than the current one.
The recent council elections were a classic foretaste of the electoral problems facing the Tory party: obliterated in many southern areas by the Lib Dems; doing better in some northern areas but not well enough to win seats from Labour. And that’s before you factor in the Brexit Party, who’d almost certainly help labour and the Lib Dems in many seats by siphoning off some Tory votes ... but not enough labour ones.
If there’s a general election before we leave the EU, it is hard to see how we’d end up with a parliament that was more pro-Brexit than the current one.
The recent council elections were a classic foretaste of the electoral problems facing the Tory party: obliterated in many southern areas by the Lib Dems; doing better in some northern areas but not well enough to win seats from Labour. And that’s before you factor in the Brexit Party, who’d almost certainly help labour and the Lib Dems in many seats by siphoning off some Tory votes ... but not enough labour ones.
EEA membership is a possibility but it's rules need to change first. For example automatic right to come into a member nation would need to go, to ensure one has border control. These sorts of changes are unlikely to be agreed by the EU so EEA membership is, at present, incompatible with Brexit. But it's in the hands to the EU to reform itself so that it is acceptable, we can't force them to act reasonably.
Ha ha I think they believe the opposite actually; that leave votes went elsewhere.
While I’m sure some of the votes for Lib Dem and certainly for Green were simply a Brexit-neutral protest, it seems an off conclusion to draw on the part of Corbyn and May, that electorate were saying “get in with Brexit” by largely turning to parties who explicitly want Brexit dropped. I suspect the message more accurately is : “Get on and do something one way or the other and let’s move on”
While I’m sure some of the votes for Lib Dem and certainly for Green were simply a Brexit-neutral protest, it seems an off conclusion to draw on the part of Corbyn and May, that electorate were saying “get in with Brexit” by largely turning to parties who explicitly want Brexit dropped. I suspect the message more accurately is : “Get on and do something one way or the other and let’s move on”
Not one way or the other. Just get on and get us out. Any future trade deal will be so much more evenly played when we are.
Unfortunately as previously said remainextremists don’t want to leave and to get a good deal post Brexit will absolutely decimate their understanding of the universe and how they want it to work.
Unfortunately as previously said remainextremists don’t want to leave and to get a good deal post Brexit will absolutely decimate their understanding of the universe and how they want it to work.
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